Response to the verses, which Christians bring up to
show Jesus claimed Divinity.
(And an even more desperate
attempt by a Muslim propagandist to explain them away)
By
Quennel Gale
Answering Christianity.com has added yet another author to the fray in discussing interfaith debate issues important to both Christians and Muslims. Yahya Ahmed’s article deals with the issue of Jesus divinity and how Christians allegedly misinterpret them to make Jesus God. Mr. Ahmed really thinks that he has a very strong case and argues confidently in his paper. However, his article is more of the same rehashed material that has been circulating among Islamic apologists for years now. In fact much of this material has already been answered in www.answering-islam.org and has been found on the website for several years also. I will point out where the material is found and then add commentary where necessary. This will show you that “Answering Christianity’s” authors repeat the same age old arguments without any real attempts to refute the evidence presented against them.
When you ask Christians do show one verse where Jesus (pbuh) claimed divinity while doing Dawah.
The Christians come up with certain verses from the Bible to show that Jesus
claimed to be divine. In my experience, there are about 8 verses which the
Christians usually bring up. I’ll reply to them here.
1.
I
and my Father are one.
This is the most common verse, which you will find Christians
quoting in order to show that Jesus claimed divinity. It is a quotation from
John 10:30
When you ask Christians about the context of this verse, you will
NOT come across a Christian who can tell you the context without opening the
Bible. For context read from verse 23. John 10:23-30
23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in
Solomon's Colonnade.
24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How
long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us
plainly."
25. Jesus answered, "I
did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name
speak for me,
This is the first charge by the Jews that Jesus (pbuh) was speaking ambiguously.
26 but you do not believe because you are not my
sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and
they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall
never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is
greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."
Verse 28 says that “No one can snatch them out of my hand” verse
29 says “No one can snatch them out of my father’s hand” then verse 30 says
that “I and the Father are one”
It is one in purpose. In context, we come to know that Jesus is saying that
once the person has believed. God and I both see to it that the person remains
in faith. In purpose, they both are one.
If, someone still insists that its one in
Trinity or One person.
Then let’s read further.
“21 That they
all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they
also may be one in us:” (John 17:21)
“One” used in both the verses John 10:30 and John 17:21 is the
same
Its “heis” hice
Now if someone
insists that it is One in a trinity than you should
change trinity into another concept meaning 14 gods. God
Almighty, Jesus (pbuh) and
twelve disciples.
Lets
read after verse 30. John verses 31-35
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
The Jews wanted to kill him for good riddance. Jesus (pbuh) gives the reply.
32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you
many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of
these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere
man, claim to be God.
This is the second charge by the Jews that Jesus (pbuh) claimed divinity and anyone who blasphemes should be
put to death according to the Jewish Law (Leviticus 24:16). But Jesus (pbuh) gives them the answer.
"34 Jesus answered them, "Is
it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
He is quoting from Psalms 82:6
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You
are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
John 10:35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the
word of God came-- and the Scripture cannot be broken--
Jesus (pbuh) is telling them that in the language of the Jews.
Prophets are called as “god.” (Exodus 7:1) Other people are called as “gods”
and you do not take exception to it than why do you take exception when I am
making a far inferior claim of being the son of God.
This explanation is sufficient to prove that Jesus (pbuh) did NOT claim divinity when he said, “I and my Father are one”
Mr. Ahmed has employed
an age old Muslim argument against this verse. He emphasizing using the context
but it’s very apparent that Mr. Ahmed isn’t familiar with the usage of the
passage and meaning himself. Jerome H. Neyrey, a scholar writing for The
Harvard Theological Review (Yes that is
We turn now to a more detailed
exegesis of John 10 to see what is being argued, so that we might assess
more clearly the meaning and function of Psalm 82 in relation to that argument.
II. The Argument in John
10:28-37
Unless Psalm 82 is used in a
purely extrinsic manner[1]
[21] in John 10:34-36, then we must investigate how it functions as an
apology to a specific charge in the forensic dynamics of John 10. The starting
place is 10:30, where Jesus claims
"I and the Father are one (or equal)." The crowds correctly interpret this to mean
that Jesus in some way claims "equality with God." His claim
leads them to a judgment, "blasphemy,
because you, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD" (10:33). Several
questions arise: In what respect are Jesus and God "one" (or equal)?
Is it true that Jesus "makes himself" God? This means that we must
examine both the earlier part of John 10 to see in what sense Jesus and God are
"equal" and the subsequent apology in 10:34-38 to see how Psalm 82
relates to the claims of equality.
The First Forensic Proceeding (10:1-28a)
After Jesus claimed to be the door
and the shepherd (10:1-16), the Gospel describes confusion in the crowd about
these claims: Is he a demon or a saint (10:19-21)? So intense is this popular
confusion that a formal forensic process is begun in 10:22-27 about Jesus'
claims. Since the crowd, who is an uneducated 'am ha-ares (7:47-49), could not possibly decide these claims, a
solemn assembly gathers "in the temple, in the stoa of Solomon"
(10:23). There it puts a formal question to Jesus: "Tell us plainly, if
you are the Messiah?" (10:24). Thus, 10:1-28a can be seen as a forensic
proceeding[2]
[22] which formally examines Jesus' claims:
Claim: Jesus
is the Door, Good Shepherd (10:1-16)
Judgment: Tell
us plainly if you are the Christ? (10:24)
Apology: Defense
of Jesus as Shepherd (10:25-27)
Jesus' defense of his claim
contains no new material which proves its truth, but is itself a judgment on
his judges,[3]
[23] an actual demonstration of how his claims work.
10:1-16 10:27-28a
1. The (true) sheep hear 1.
My sheep hear
his voice (10:3b)
my
voice (10:27a)
2. 1 know
my own 2.
I know them (10:27b)
and my own know me (10:14)
3. The sheep follow him, for 3.
And they follow me (10:27c)
they know his voice (10:4)
By Jesus' criteria of judgment, then, he proves
that his judges are not his sheep nor is he their shepherd. According to the
Gospel's logic, these self-confessed non-sheep have rejected Jesus' basic
claims to be God's agent and so are convicted of sin and unbelief (see John
3:18, 20; 5:40-45; 9:39-41; 12:46-48). Yet the forensic process is not yet finished.
The Second Forensic Proceeding (10:28b-39)
In 10:28-30 Jesus makes newer and
bolder claims Although formerly this Gospel claimed that believers by their own
judgment come to life and pass beyond death (3:16-19; 5:24), now Jesus asserts that he himself is the
giver of eternal life: "I give them eternal life and they never
perish" (10:28a). He asserts
that "no one shall snatch them out of my hand" (10:28b).[4]
[24] Thus, Jesus now functions as the active agent of life, as giver of
eternal life and as protector of his sheep even in death. Yet these claims would PUT HIM ON PAR WITH THE ALL-POWERFUL GOD.
10:29 states two things about
God. First, God is "greater than all"[5] [25] in virtue of
God's ruling or executive power as pantocrator, despotes, and basileus.[6] [26] Second,
of God it is said, "My Father…has given them [the sheep] to me and no one
is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (10:29). Concerning the
latter remark, then, Jesus and God are alike, even equal.
Jesus
(10:28) The
Father (10:29)
I give them eternal life My
Father…has given
and they shall not perish them to me
forever,
and no one shall snatch and no one is able to snatch
them out of my hand. them
out of the Fathers hand.
To underscore the boldness of Jesus' claims,
the text emphasizes that "God is greater than all” (10:29b),
thus raising God above all other creatures, be they of no power or great power.
Yet Jesus claims that he is "equal
to" God who is "greater than all," when he draws the conclusion
in 10:30, "I and the Father are hen."
Literally hen means
"one." But the context suggests that this adjective be translated as "equal to" or
"on a par with." Jesus claims
far more than mere moral unity with God, which was the aim of every
Israelite; such moral unity would never mean that mortals had become “god;” as
Jesus' remark is understood in 10:31-33. The very argument in John, then,
understands hen to mean more than
moral unity, that is, "equality
with God." By way of confirmation, 1 Cor 3:7 indicates that hen can mean "equality."[7]
[27] In virtue of the comparison noted above, Jesus claims equality
with God, who is "greater than all," because there is “no snatching
out of their hands.” To what does
this refer?
In the context of 10:28, Jesus
claims both the power to give eternal life so that his sheep do not perish and
the power to guard them from being snatched. “Being snatched,” then, has to do
with life and death, such that Death[8] [28] has no
ultimate power over Jesus' sheep. Conversely, this implies that Jesus has such
power from God so that he is the one who gives eternal life and rescues the
dead from the snares of Death (see John 5:25, 28-29; 6:39, 44, 54; 8:51;
11:25). Since God alone holds the keys
of life and death, Jesus claims an extraordinary power which belongs
exclusively to God.[9]
[29] There is substance, then, to the claim that Jesus and the Father are
"equal" (10:30).
I have shown at great length
that the Fourth Gospel clearly and formally argues that Jesus is "equal
to God" (5:18; 10:33) because God has given him full eschatological power
(5:21-29).[10]
[30] God gave him power (1) to
give eternal life (5:21; 10:28), (2) to judge (5:22, 27; 8:21-30), (3) to be
honored as Lawmaker and Judge (5:23), (4) to have life in himself (5:26;
10:17-18), and (5) to raise the dead and judge them (5:28-29). In fact,
5:21-29, a summary of Jesus' eschatological power, functions as a topic
statement which the Gospel subsequently develops in chaps, 8, 10, and 11.[11]
[31] The claims in 10:28-30,
then, continue the exposition of Jesus' full eschatological power.
Our exegesis of 10:22-30 yields
the following information. A second forensic process begins in 10:28-30. Jesus
is formally on trial, not just concerning whether he is "the Christ"
(10:23-24), but especially about his claim to be "equal to God" (10:30,
33), The chief issue that is contested, moreover, concerns ultimate power over
death, whereby Jesus is equal to God.
Claim: “I and the Father are ‘one.’” (10:30, 33), i,e., power over death (10:28-30):
(a) “I give them eternal
life”
(b) "they do not perish forever"
(c) "no one snatches them out of my hand"
Judgment:
"Blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself equal to God"
(10:33)
Apology:
Use of Ps 82:6 (10:34-36): their judgment is false, because God makes Jesus to
be "Son of God"
Our focus necessarily turns to
the apology in 10:34-36. How does the Fourth Gospel understand and use Psalm
82, and does this usage have any relationship to the claims made in 10:28-30?
As we begin, let us pay special attention to the form of the charge in 10:33. Jesus is accused of "making
himself" equal to God, a charge THAT DOMINATES THE MANY FORENSIC
PROCEEDINGS AGAINST HIM:
5:18 "…making himself God"
10:33 "you, a man, make yourself God"
19:7 "he made himself the son of God"
19:12 "who makes
himself king…"[12]
[32]
The evangelist distinguishes two elements of
the judgment against Jesus: (1) Does Jesus make
himself God or equal to God? (2) In what sense is Jesus equal to God or “god”? The distinction is important, for the Johannine
Gospel denies the former half, that is, that Jesus makes himself anything, but carefully explains and defends the
assertion of his equality with God.[13] [33] ("I Said: You Are Gods": Psalm 82:6 and John 10; Jerome
H. Neyrey,
Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 108, No. 4 (Winter, 1989), pp. 647-663 Emphasis ours)
Mr. Ahmed tries to convince us that Jesus didn’t claim divinity when the Jews themselves said:
We are not stoning you for any of
these," replied the Jews, "but
for blasphemy, because you, A MERE MAN, CLAIM TO BE GOD. John 10:33
The Jews knew very well what Psalms 82:6 meant for Rabbinical tradition was
well known in 1st century
"And this was why the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did this on the sabbath. But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father is working still, AND I AM WORKING.’ This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal (ison) with God." John 5:16-18
We read in Scoffield’s notes, on the Greek text that:
Literally, “His own Father”-Greek- patera idion. It is clear that the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God.’” (Scoffield NKJV, footnote on John 5:18; pg 843; 1989)
Jesus by his own admission is
claiming to be God here! As Scoffield noted the words
“patera idion”
differentiates from metaphorically usage of Father. Jesus was literally saying
that God was his very literal Father (yet not in a physical sense, but in a
purely spiritual sense)! This would clearly mean that Jesus himself was saying
that his very nature WAS THE VERY SAME NATURE OF GOD HIMSELF. Since both
fathers and sons share the same nature, without the son being less than his
father in essence, similarly Jesus being God’s unique Son indicates his
equality with the Father in essence as well as his personally distinction, that
they are two distinct Persons who have the same Divine nature.
Interestingly, even the Old Testament writers knew that God has a Divine Son who was equal with him in nature:
"Who has gone up to heaven and
come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has
wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the
earth? What is his name, AND THE NAME OF HIS SON? Tell me if you
know!" Proverbs 30:4
According to the Jewish OT the One who established the earth is none other than Yahweh God:
For thus says the LORD, WHO CREATED THE HEAVENS, WHO IS GOD, Who formed the earth and made it, WHO HAS ESTABLISHED IT, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18
Agur is asking about the name “of the Son of God”, with
name here signifying the nature and essence of the subject. What Agur was
basically saying is that not only are God’s nature and ways incomprehensible to
man, but that the nature and acts of the Son are just as incomprehensible as
well. This is similar to what Jesus himself said:
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one
knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is
except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” Luke 10:22
Just as the Father is
incomprehensible so is his Son, and just as no one completely knows the Son
except the Father in a similar manner no one comprehensively knows the Father
except his Son!
Because we know that Jesus claimed to be THE Son of God the OT tells us how to treat him:
Serve the
LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be
angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. Psalms 2:11-12
In Psalm 2 we have a prophetic picture which should be read
in its entirety. It describes ~(vv. 2 and 3) the time when the nations will
stand against God and against his Anointed One (Mashiho, from which our English word
Messiah comes). God says in verse 6 that he will nevertheless establish this
Messiah as his King on
Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples
meditate vanity? Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have
been united together, Against Jehovah,
AND AGAINST HIS MESSIAH (Mashiho):
`Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.' He who is
sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them. Then doth He
speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them: `And I --
I have anointed My King, Upon
In verse 7 Messiah steps
forward to declare the decree by which his coronation shall be accomplished,
saying: "I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: "He said to me, 'You
are my Son; today I have become your Father. Ask of me, and I will make the
nations (goyim) your inheritance."' Furthermore, in Psalm 2:11-12 we are
solemnly instructed:
Serve the
LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. KISS THE SON (nashqu bar), lest He be angry, And you perish in the
way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put
their trust in Him. Psalms 2:11-12
The Hebrew for "kiss the Son" is nashqu bar. Even if this is translated, as some would have it, "Do homage in purity," the homage is to the Lord of verse 2 and to the Son of verse 7. The Tanakh clearly indicates that there is a Divine personality who is called the Son of God!
What is amusing is that even Allah and Muhammad recognized the implication of Jesus calling himself God’s Son “in a literal (albeit spiritual) way”:
Then God will say: ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to
mankind: "Worship me and my mother
as gods besides God?"’ S. 5:116
This is why the Quran instructed Muhammad to say:
Say: "If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I WOULD BE
THE FIRST TO WORSHIP HIM". S. 43:82
Ibn Kathir comments:
Allah has no Offspring Allah says:
[قُلْ]
(Say)
-- `O Muhammad' --
[إِن كَانَ
لِلرَّحْمَـنِ
وَلَدٌ
فَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ
الْعَـبِدِينَ]
(If the Most Gracious
had a son, then I am the first of the worshippers.) meaning, `if this were so,
then I would worship Him on that basis, because I am one of His servants; I
obey all that He commands me and I am not too arrogant or proud to worship Him.' This conditional
phrase does not mean that what is described could happen nor that is possible
as Allah says:
[لَّوْ
أَرَادَ
اللَّهُ أَن
يَتَّخِذَ
وَلَداً
لاَّصْطَفَى
مِمَّا
يَخْلُقُ مَا
يَشَآءُ
سُبْحَـنَهُ
هُوَ اللَّهُ
الْوَحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ
]
(Had
Allah willed to take a son, He could have chosen whom He willed out of those
whom He created. But glory be to Him! He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible.)
(39:4). Allah says here:
[سُبْحَـنَ
رَبِّ
السَّمَـوَتِ
وَالاٌّرْضِ
رَبِّ
الْعَرْشِ
عَمَّا
يَصِفُونَ ]
(Glorified is the Lord of the heavens
and the earth, the Lord of the Throne! Exalted be He from all that they ascribe
(to Him).) meaning, exalted and sanctified and glorified be the Creator of all
things far above having any offspring, for He is Unique, One and Eternally
Self-Sufficient. There is none equal to Him or like Him, and He does not have
any offspring.
[فَذَرْهُمْ
يَخُوضُواْ]
(So leave them (alone) to speak
nonsense) means, in their ignorance and misguidance,
[وَيَلْعَبُواْ]
(and
play) in their world,
[حَتَّى
يُلَـقُواْ
يَوْمَهُمُ
الَّذِى
يُوعَدُونَ]
(until they meet the Day of theirs
which they have been promised.) which is the Day of Resurrection, i.e., then
they will come to know what their end and destination will be on that Day. (Source; Tafsir Ibn Kathir; S. 43:82 emphasis
ours)
Some Muslims have attempted to link this passage to David, particularly Psalms 2:7; however this is easily refuted since neither the Holy Bible nor the Quran call David the Messiah nor do either claim that one must put their trust in David. Hence, to call David “the Son” in this verse would refute all of Islam and the Quran because this passage explicitly refers to THE MESSIAH, who is Jesus according to Islam!
The world-renown Greek NT scholar A.T. Robertson noted:
But
also called God his own Father (alla kai patera idion elege ton qeon). "His own" (idion) IN A SENSE NOT TRUE OF OTHERS. That is precisely what Jesus meant
by "My Father." See Romans
8:32 for o idioß uioß, "his own Son." Making himself equal with God
(ison eauton poiwn twi qewi). Isoß is an old common adjective (in
papyri also) and means equal. In Philippians
2:6 Paul calls the Pre-incarnate Christ isa qewi, "equal to God" (plural isa, attributes of God). Bernard thinks
that Jesus would not claim to be isoß qewi because in John
14:28 he says: "The Father is greater than I." And yet he says in
John
14:7 that the one who sees him sees in him the Father. Certainly the Jews understood Jesus to claim equality with the Father
in nature and privilege and power as also in John
10:33; John
19:7. Besides, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus on this point, it was open and easy for him to deny it and
to clear up the misapprehension. This is precisely what he does not do. On
the contrary Jesus gives a powerful apologetic in defence of his claim to
equality with the Father (verses John
19-47). (Source)
Hence, both the NT data along and the clear evidence from the OT show that Christ is Divine and that he made explicit claims to Deity. That’s why the Jews wanted him killed:
"The Jews answered him, ‘We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he has made himself THE SON OF GOD.’" John 19:7
"And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, ‘Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?’ But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE BLESSED?’ And Jesus said, ‘I AM; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’ And the high priest tore his garments, and said, ‘Why do we still need witnesses? You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?’ And they all condemned him as deserving death." Mark 14:60-64
Claiming to “be the literal (albeit spiritual) Son of God himself” was equivalent to claiming to be God which would be blasphemy if the person wasn’t who claimed to be. Yet if a person is indeed the actual, unique Son of God then such a person must be worshiped as Deity. When you take this with Jesus saying in John 10:30 it becomes strikingly clear that the Jews were beginning to stone him for claiming to be God himself!
2. “Before Abraham was I am”
Mr. Ahmed now proceeds to attack the divinity claim of Jesus
in John 8:58, which are known as the famous “I AM” saying. He says:
This is another
quotation which the Christians bring to show the divinity of Jesus. Its from John 8:58.
Lets analyze this verse.
“Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” (John
8:58)
The reasons
Christians give that Christ (pbuh) claimed divinity
here are:
A. Jesus existed
before Abraham.
B.“I am” is the name of God in the Bible (Exodus
3:14)
Lets analyze both the reasons.
A.
If
Jesus (pbuh) existed before Abraham that does not make him God in anyway
because even angels existed before Abraham. They existed before the world was
created. Does it make them God? No ! Jesus (pbuh) was with God before Abraham (pbuh) , but in what form? Was he like a handsome young man
moving around and then God reduced him to a small baby and put him in his
mother’s womb? No No ! It means in the knowledge of
God we all were there. Jeremiah is said to have been made a Prophet before his
birth. The Bible says
“Before I formed
thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest
forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the
nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)
In Islam, we share
somewhat a similar belief. The Quran says
“When thy Lord
drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants,
and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord
(who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do
testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this
we were never mindful":(Quran 7:172)
Response:
This defense that Jesus existed in the manner that Mr. Ahmed alleges is false in light of the Biblical data and Greek language structure. Sam Shamoun addresses this same argument in a debate with Mr. Ghounem, several years ago:
Ghounem:
Jesus knew he existed before the
world was made, but this doesn't prove he was God Almighty. (John 17:5) Many
angels also existed before the world was created. (Job 38:7).
Response:
The problem with Ghounem's comparison is that none of the
angels existed in the same divine glory that God existed in. Yet, Jesus claimed
that he personally existed in that very same divine glory:
"And now, Father, glorify me
in your presence with the glory I had WITH YOU before the world began."
John 17:5
Interestingly, Yahweh swears to never give his own glory to
another:
"I
am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my
praise to idols." Isaiah 42:8
"For my own sake, for my own
sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory
to another." Isaiah 48:11
Yet Jesus claims to have preexisted in the same glory that
the Father had before the creation of the world. This affirms that both Father
and Son are the one God Yahweh. (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Ghounem/iam.htm)
Comments: As you can see, Jesus
claimed to have the very same glory that God himself before the beginning of
creation. Moreover, what Mr. Ahmed will be shocked to know is that Jesus even
gives God a command. In his high priestly prayer, Jesus commands the Father to
glorify him with the glory Christ had with him before become flesh:
"And now, Father, GLORIFY ME (Greek- doxason Me) in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." John 17:5
The phrase, "glorify me" is a Greek imperative, with the word "glorify" being in the aorist tense. Noted Greek Grammarian Dr. Daniel B. Wallace comments on the Greek imperative with the aorist tense:
"The imperative is most commonly used for commands, outnumbering prohibitive imperatives about five to one. As a command, the imperative is usually from a superior to an inferior in rank. It occurs frequently with the aorist and present (only rarely with the perfect tense).
The basic force of the imperative of command involves somewhat different nuances with each tense. With the aorist, the force generally is to command the action as a whole, without focusing on duration, repetition, etc. In keeping with its aspectual force, the aorist puts forth a summary command..." (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics [Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids MI, 1996], p. 485; bold emphasis)
As Wallace noted, the imperative is a command usually given from a superior to an inferior in rank, but not always. In the case of John 17:5, it is two equals addressing each other. The very reason why Jesus can demand to be glorified by the Father is because Christ is equal to the latter in his Divine nature, being fully God also. It is very clear from the Greek text that Jesus didn’t exist as just a thought or just in the mind of God as Mr. Ahmed claims. You could only command a person to do this if you were a person, in Jesus case, before the world began, and not a thought. Sam Shamoun says this perfectly:
Response:
Furthermore, Jesus is presented in the very same Gospel as the Creator of all things. This would also include the angelic host of heaven:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made… He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him… The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1-3, 10, 14
Ghounem's comparison does not hold any weight. (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Ghounem/iam.htm)
Comments: If Mr. Ahmed holds to the view that Jesus existed only in the manner of the Angels then he also has to be consist and conclude that the Angels helped God create the universe! He is also implying that God used a created being to create the universe!
B.
The Christians
claim that “I am” is the name of God in the Bible in Exodus 3:14. The verse
reads
“And God said unto
Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt
thou say unto the children of
“Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, God ( I am.)”
We have no objection in agreeing that God was there before
Abraham.
If
Jesus was claiming divinity here. He should have at least remained consistent in the usage of
words. In Exodus 3:14 the word for “I am” is “haw-yaw’ Where as the word
in John 8:58 is “Ego Eimi”
This is sufficient to prove that in John 8:58 Jesus did not claim divinity.
Response:
Sam Shamoun has again addressed this matter and perfectly says this:
Response:
It is true that Christians have traditionally linked John 8:58 to Exodus 3:14, yet not all Christians do so. Christians such as myself are aware that in Exodus God is revealing his personal covenant name to Moses, whereas in John 8:58 the shift is not on who Jesus is but rather on how long Christ has been in existence. It is Jesus’ comment on the duration of his existence that identifies him as Yahweh God, a fact that will soon become apparent in our rebuttal to Ghounem. (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Ghounem/iam.htm)
Comments: This brings us to the second part of this response for Mr. Ahmed believes that Jesus I AM sayings only prove that he existed before Abraham, similar to the angels and that if he didn’t claim the full title of Exodus 3:14 he isn’t claiming to be God. The problem for Ahmed is that he doesn’t have a shred of understanding of what the Greek words mean in this passage:
Meaning of the verb Genesthai and its related verb form Ginomai
Robertson, Word Pictures In The New Testament, John 8:58
{Before Abraham was} (prin abraam genesqai). Usual idiom with prin in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of ginomai) and the accusative of general reference, "before coming as to Abraham," "before Abraham came into existence or was born." {I am} (egw eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesqai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in # 1:1 and egeneto in # 1:14. See the contrast also in # Ps 90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genhqhnai). See the same use of eimi in # Joh 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.
The late AT Robertson was one of the greatest Greek scholars and linguists of all time, and any study Greek would lead to the same conclusion given above. Jesus used the same absolute phrase used of God only, unless Mr. Ahmed wants us to believe now that God existed as a thought!
Vincent's Word Studies on John 8:58
Was, I am (genesqai, egw
eimi). It is important to observe the distinction between the two verbs. Abraham's
life was under the conditions of time, and therefore had a temporal beginning.
Hence, Abraham came into being, or was born (genesqai). Jesus'
life was from and to eternity. Hence the formula for absolute, timeless
existence, I am (egw eimi).
Meaning of the verb Eimi
Louw-Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament:
Semantic Domains, p.157
13.69 eimi:
to exist, in an absolute sense - 'to be, to exist.' Pisteusai
… hoti estin 'must have faith … that (God) exists' He 11:6; pro tou
tov kosmon eivai 'before the world existed' Jn 17:5; kalountos ta ma
onta hos onta 'whose command brings into being what did not exist' Ro 4:17;
en auto gar zomen kai kinometha kay esmen 'in whom we live and move
about and have our existence' Ac 17:28
Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon
The Greek text of the NT thoroughly refutes Mr. Ahmed’s explanation. Just like Muslims can turn to the Arabic text of the Quran to prove or disprove an argument, so can Christians do the same with the NT. Jesus literally claim to exist for all eternity which is only applicable to God himself and not like any of the angels who were created before the creation of the universe! He isn’t necessarily claiming to be God based on Exodus 3:14, he is claiming to be God based on the very attribute of God himself “Eternal existence with no end or beginning”. To hit home this says:
Witmer, Did Jesus Claim to be God, Bibliotheca Sacra, January 1961, pp.152-153
The most emphatic claim of Jesus to deity is the statement in His discussion with the Jews, "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58, A.S.V.) The Jews brought the name of Abraham, their physical and spiritual father, into the conversation (vss. 52-53). Jesus seized upon it to lead on to His final claim in the verse already quoted, startling the Jews by saying: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad" (vs. 56). When the Jews responded with a question as to how a man as young as Jesus could have seen Abraham, "Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God." [Archibald Thomas Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, V, 158-59.]
Jesus did not claim mere pre-existence to Abraham, which would have been expressed by the imperfect tense of the verb used concerning Abraham, but eternal existence, the self-existence that belongs to God alone.
If Jesus was merely claiming to exist before Abraham like the angels THEN HE WOULD HAVE EXPRESSED THIS CLAIM IN THE IMPERFECT TENSE! Many Christians who study Christianity already know this and such foolish Muslim propaganda only makes the denizens of Allah look like ill prepared amateurs! How would it look like if I made a claim from the English translation of the Quran and then what I claim was disproved by the Arabic text? Foolish! This is how Mr. Ahmed looks right about now! Claiming that Jesus I AM statements only imply he existed only before Abraham like the angels when this must be rendered in the imperfect tense!
3. “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the
Father, but by me.”
4. “he that hath seen me hath seen the
Father”
I’ll reply to these two verses together. They are from John 14:6
and John 14:9 respectively.
Lets read the verses in context.
1"Do
not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am
going there to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I
will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4You know the way to the place where I am
going."
5Thomas
said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know
the way?" (John 14:1-5)
In context we read that Jesus Christ (pbuh)
is talking about God Almighty. Verse 2 gives the answer. Jesus says “In my
FATHER’S house”. He is talking about going to paradise, he is talking about
spiritual matters, they are thinking of some geographical location. So Jesus (pbuh) gives the reply.
“6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and
the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
He is the way to God. Every Prophet during his time was the way to God. At the
time of Moses (pbuh) he was the way to God. The
Children of Israel chose another way through golden calf, it wasn’t accepted
from them. At the time of Noah (pbuh) he was the way
to God. If you had to get saves, just get into the ark, that’s all ! At the
time of Jesus (pbuh) he was the way to God. But
today, it’s the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), he
is the way to Almighty God.
7If you
really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him
and have seen him." (John 14:7)
Here Jesus (pbuh) is saying that if you
know me, you know God i.e. if you follow me, you are indirectly following
Almighty God. Seeing God here means knowing God as we can see from the verse.
8Philip
said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." (John
14:8)
Here Philip is asking Jesus (pbuh) to
show him God. The Bible says
“No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18)
“But," he (God) said, "you cannot see my face, for no
one may see me and live." (Exodus 33:20)
Note : The
word “God” in bracket is mine.
Being a Jew, he knew that no man can see God and live, making such an absurd
request to Jesus (pbuh) of showing the father. So
Jesus (pbuh) replies
9Jesus
answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such
a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show
us the Father'? (John 14:9)
Jesus (pbuh) is saying to Phillips that
he had been with him for so long and still making such an silly request of
showing God, so Jesus says that “Anyone who has seen me has seen the father”
meaning if you know me, you know Almighty God as well. You follow my teachings;
you are following the teachings of Almighty God.
In context, we come to know that anyone who knows Jesus (pbuh) i.e. anyone who follows Jesus (pbuh)
is indirectly following Almighty God to which we have no objection. Verses 1-2
give the context.
Response:
Like his fellow co-propagandists before him, Mr. Ahmed has to do a lot of tongue twisting to hide the obvious here. He claims that when Jesus mentioned that “he was the only way to God that IT WASN’T ACTUALLY THE CASE BUT THAT ALL PROPHETS WERE THE WAY! The usage of John 1:18 is quite hilarious also for Mr. Ahmed didn’t post the entire scripture, to give you the entire meaning. Again Sam Shamoun of answering-islam.org has addressed this very same issue:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_seeing_god1.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_seeing_god2.htm
We quote here:
Question:
The Bible says that God has never been seen (cf. John 1:18), and yet Jesus was seen and heard. This again proves that Jesus cannot be God.
Answer:
Just as in Part 1 (on John 5:37), a careful reading of the passage helps to resolve the problem. Notice that in John 1:18, the Evangelist says that God's Son, WHO HIMSELF IS GOD, has made God known. How did he do this? By becoming flesh. John therefore affirms that GOD has appeared visibly and revealed himself to others when the Son took on human nature. (Cf. John 1:1-3, 10-11, 14)
Furthermore, the God whom no one has seen is the Father. Note the text again:
"No one has ever seen God. It is GOD the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known." NRSV
So this in itself suffices as a response since John is not denying that God has ever been seen, but that the Father has never been seen.
With that said, we must now understand what John meant that the Father has never been seen.
A careful examination of the context shows that John is actually expounding upon the Greek Septuagint (LXX) of Exodus 33:7-20:
"And Moses took his TABERNACLE (ten skenen autou) and PITCHED IT without the camp, at a distance from the camp; and it was called THE TABERNACLE of Testimony (skene marturiou): and it came to pass that every one that sought the Lord went forth to THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen) which was without the camp. And whenever Moses went into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen) without the camp, all the people stood every one watching by the doors OF HIS TENT (tes skenes autou); and when Moses departed, they took notice until he entered into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen). And when Moses entered into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen), THE PILLAR OF THE CLOUD DESCENDED, and stood at the door of THE TABERNACLE (tes skene), and God talked to Moses. And all the people SAW THE PILLAR OF THE CLOUD standing by the door of THE TABERNACLE (tes skenes), and all the people stood and worshipped every one at the door OF HIS TENT (tes skenes autou). And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as if one should speak to his friend; and he retired into the camp: but his servant Joshua the son of Naue, a young man, departe