Response to the verses, which Christians bring up to
show Jesus claimed Divinity.
(And an even more desperate
attempt by a Muslim propagandist to explain them away)
By
Quennel Gale
Answering Christianity.com has added yet another author to the fray in discussing interfaith debate issues important to both Christians and Muslims. Yahya Ahmed’s article deals with the issue of Jesus divinity and how Christians allegedly misinterpret them to make Jesus God. Mr. Ahmed really thinks that he has a very strong case and argues confidently in his paper. However, his article is more of the same rehashed material that has been circulating among Islamic apologists for years now. In fact much of this material has already been answered in www.answering-islam.org and has been found on the website for several years also. I will point out where the material is found and then add commentary where necessary. This will show you that “Answering Christianity’s” authors repeat the same age old arguments without any real attempts to refute the evidence presented against them.
When you ask Christians do show one verse where Jesus (pbuh) claimed divinity while doing Dawah.
The Christians come up with certain verses from the Bible to show that Jesus
claimed to be divine. In my experience, there are about 8 verses which the
Christians usually bring up. I’ll reply to them here.
1.
I
and my Father are one.
This is the most common verse, which you will find Christians
quoting in order to show that Jesus claimed divinity. It is a quotation from
John 10:30
When you ask Christians about the context of this verse, you will
NOT come across a Christian who can tell you the context without opening the
Bible. For context read from verse 23. John 10:23-30
23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in
Solomon's Colonnade.
24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How
long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us
plainly."
25. Jesus answered, "I
did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name
speak for me,
This is the first charge by the Jews that Jesus (pbuh) was speaking ambiguously.
26 but you do not believe because you are not my
sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and
they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall
never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is
greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."
Verse 28 says that “No one can snatch them out of my hand” verse
29 says “No one can snatch them out of my father’s hand” then verse 30 says
that “I and the Father are one”
It is one in purpose. In context, we come to know that Jesus is saying that
once the person has believed. God and I both see to it that the person remains
in faith. In purpose, they both are one.
If, someone still insists that its one in
Trinity or One person.
Then let’s read further.
“21 That they
all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they
also may be one in us:” (John 17:21)
“One” used in both the verses John 10:30 and John 17:21 is the
same
Its “heis” hice
Now if someone
insists that it is One in a trinity than you should
change trinity into another concept meaning 14 gods. God
Almighty, Jesus (pbuh) and
twelve disciples.
Lets
read after verse 30. John verses 31-35
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
The Jews wanted to kill him for good riddance. Jesus (pbuh) gives the reply.
32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you
many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of
these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere
man, claim to be God.
This is the second charge by the Jews that Jesus (pbuh) claimed divinity and anyone who blasphemes should be
put to death according to the Jewish Law (Leviticus 24:16). But Jesus (pbuh) gives them the answer.
"34 Jesus answered them, "Is
it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
He is quoting from Psalms 82:6
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You
are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
John 10:35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the
word of God came-- and the Scripture cannot be broken--
Jesus (pbuh) is telling them that in the language of the Jews.
Prophets are called as “god.” (Exodus 7:1) Other people are called as “gods”
and you do not take exception to it than why do you take exception when I am
making a far inferior claim of being the son of God.
This explanation is sufficient to prove that Jesus (pbuh) did NOT claim divinity when he said, “I and my Father are one”
Mr. Ahmed has employed
an age old Muslim argument against this verse. He emphasizing using the context
but it’s very apparent that Mr. Ahmed isn’t familiar with the usage of the
passage and meaning himself. Jerome H. Neyrey, a scholar writing for The
Harvard Theological Review (Yes that is
We turn now to a more detailed
exegesis of John 10 to see what is being argued, so that we might assess
more clearly the meaning and function of Psalm 82 in relation to that argument.
II. The Argument in John
10:28-37
Unless Psalm 82 is used in a
purely extrinsic manner[1]
[21] in John 10:34-36, then we must investigate how it functions as an
apology to a specific charge in the forensic dynamics of John 10. The starting
place is 10:30, where Jesus claims
"I and the Father are one (or equal)." The crowds correctly interpret this to mean
that Jesus in some way claims "equality with God." His claim
leads them to a judgment, "blasphemy,
because you, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD" (10:33). Several
questions arise: In what respect are Jesus and God "one" (or equal)?
Is it true that Jesus "makes himself" God? This means that we must
examine both the earlier part of John 10 to see in what sense Jesus and God are
"equal" and the subsequent apology in 10:34-38 to see how Psalm 82
relates to the claims of equality.
The First Forensic Proceeding (10:1-28a)
After Jesus claimed to be the door
and the shepherd (10:1-16), the Gospel describes confusion in the crowd about
these claims: Is he a demon or a saint (10:19-21)? So intense is this popular
confusion that a formal forensic process is begun in 10:22-27 about Jesus'
claims. Since the crowd, who is an uneducated 'am ha-ares (7:47-49), could not possibly decide these claims, a
solemn assembly gathers "in the temple, in the stoa of Solomon"
(10:23). There it puts a formal question to Jesus: "Tell us plainly, if
you are the Messiah?" (10:24). Thus, 10:1-28a can be seen as a forensic
proceeding[2]
[22] which formally examines Jesus' claims:
Claim: Jesus
is the Door, Good Shepherd (10:1-16)
Judgment: Tell
us plainly if you are the Christ? (10:24)
Apology: Defense
of Jesus as Shepherd (10:25-27)
Jesus' defense of his claim
contains no new material which proves its truth, but is itself a judgment on
his judges,[3]
[23] an actual demonstration of how his claims work.
10:1-16 10:27-28a
1. The (true) sheep hear 1.
My sheep hear
his voice (10:3b)
my
voice (10:27a)
2. 1 know
my own 2.
I know them (10:27b)
and my own know me (10:14)
3. The sheep follow him, for 3.
And they follow me (10:27c)
they know his voice (10:4)
By Jesus' criteria of judgment, then, he proves
that his judges are not his sheep nor is he their shepherd. According to the
Gospel's logic, these self-confessed non-sheep have rejected Jesus' basic
claims to be God's agent and so are convicted of sin and unbelief (see John
3:18, 20; 5:40-45; 9:39-41; 12:46-48). Yet the forensic process is not yet finished.
The Second Forensic Proceeding (10:28b-39)
In 10:28-30 Jesus makes newer and
bolder claims Although formerly this Gospel claimed that believers by their own
judgment come to life and pass beyond death (3:16-19; 5:24), now Jesus asserts that he himself is the
giver of eternal life: "I give them eternal life and they never
perish" (10:28a). He asserts
that "no one shall snatch them out of my hand" (10:28b).[4]
[24] Thus, Jesus now functions as the active agent of life, as giver of
eternal life and as protector of his sheep even in death. Yet these claims would PUT HIM ON PAR WITH THE ALL-POWERFUL GOD.
10:29 states two things about
God. First, God is "greater than all"[5] [25] in virtue of
God's ruling or executive power as pantocrator, despotes, and basileus.[6] [26] Second,
of God it is said, "My Father…has given them [the sheep] to me and no one
is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (10:29). Concerning the
latter remark, then, Jesus and God are alike, even equal.
Jesus
(10:28) The
Father (10:29)
I give them eternal life My
Father…has given
and they shall not perish them to me
forever,
and no one shall snatch and no one is able to snatch
them out of my hand. them
out of the Fathers hand.
To underscore the boldness of Jesus' claims,
the text emphasizes that "God is greater than all” (10:29b),
thus raising God above all other creatures, be they of no power or great power.
Yet Jesus claims that he is "equal
to" God who is "greater than all," when he draws the conclusion
in 10:30, "I and the Father are hen."
Literally hen means
"one." But the context suggests that this adjective be translated as "equal to" or
"on a par with." Jesus claims
far more than mere moral unity with God, which was the aim of every
Israelite; such moral unity would never mean that mortals had become “god;” as
Jesus' remark is understood in 10:31-33. The very argument in John, then,
understands hen to mean more than
moral unity, that is, "equality
with God." By way of confirmation, 1 Cor 3:7 indicates that hen can mean "equality."[7]
[27] In virtue of the comparison noted above, Jesus claims equality
with God, who is "greater than all," because there is “no snatching
out of their hands.” To what does
this refer?
In the context of 10:28, Jesus
claims both the power to give eternal life so that his sheep do not perish and
the power to guard them from being snatched. “Being snatched,” then, has to do
with life and death, such that Death[8] [28] has no
ultimate power over Jesus' sheep. Conversely, this implies that Jesus has such
power from God so that he is the one who gives eternal life and rescues the
dead from the snares of Death (see John 5:25, 28-29; 6:39, 44, 54; 8:51;
11:25). Since God alone holds the keys
of life and death, Jesus claims an extraordinary power which belongs
exclusively to God.[9]
[29] There is substance, then, to the claim that Jesus and the Father are
"equal" (10:30).
I have shown at great length
that the Fourth Gospel clearly and formally argues that Jesus is "equal
to God" (5:18; 10:33) because God has given him full eschatological power
(5:21-29).[10]
[30] God gave him power (1) to
give eternal life (5:21; 10:28), (2) to judge (5:22, 27; 8:21-30), (3) to be
honored as Lawmaker and Judge (5:23), (4) to have life in himself (5:26;
10:17-18), and (5) to raise the dead and judge them (5:28-29). In fact,
5:21-29, a summary of Jesus' eschatological power, functions as a topic
statement which the Gospel subsequently develops in chaps, 8, 10, and 11.[11]
[31] The claims in 10:28-30,
then, continue the exposition of Jesus' full eschatological power.
Our exegesis of 10:22-30 yields
the following information. A second forensic process begins in 10:28-30. Jesus
is formally on trial, not just concerning whether he is "the Christ"
(10:23-24), but especially about his claim to be "equal to God" (10:30,
33), The chief issue that is contested, moreover, concerns ultimate power over
death, whereby Jesus is equal to God.
Claim: “I and the Father are ‘one.’” (10:30, 33), i,e., power over death (10:28-30):
(a) “I give them eternal
life”
(b) "they do not perish forever"
(c) "no one snatches them out of my hand"
Judgment:
"Blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself equal to God"
(10:33)
Apology:
Use of Ps 82:6 (10:34-36): their judgment is false, because God makes Jesus to
be "Son of God"
Our focus necessarily turns to
the apology in 10:34-36. How does the Fourth Gospel understand and use Psalm
82, and does this usage have any relationship to the claims made in 10:28-30?
As we begin, let us pay special attention to the form of the charge in 10:33. Jesus is accused of "making
himself" equal to God, a charge THAT DOMINATES THE MANY FORENSIC
PROCEEDINGS AGAINST HIM:
5:18 "…making himself God"
10:33 "you, a man, make yourself God"
19:7 "he made himself the son of God"
19:12 "who makes
himself king…"[12]
[32]
The evangelist distinguishes two elements of
the judgment against Jesus: (1) Does Jesus make
himself God or equal to God? (2) In what sense is Jesus equal to God or “god”? The distinction is important, for the Johannine
Gospel denies the former half, that is, that Jesus makes himself anything, but carefully explains and defends the
assertion of his equality with God.[13] [33] ("I Said: You Are Gods": Psalm 82:6 and John 10; Jerome
H. Neyrey,
Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 108, No. 4 (Winter, 1989), pp. 647-663 Emphasis ours)
Mr. Ahmed tries to convince us that Jesus didn’t claim divinity when the Jews themselves said:
We are not stoning you for any of
these," replied the Jews, "but
for blasphemy, because you, A MERE MAN, CLAIM TO BE GOD. John 10:33
The Jews knew very well what Psalms 82:6 meant for Rabbinical tradition was
well known in 1st century
"And this was why the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did this on the sabbath. But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father is working still, AND I AM WORKING.’ This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal (ison) with God." John 5:16-18
We read in Scoffield’s notes, on the Greek text that:
Literally, “His own Father”-Greek- patera idion. It is clear that the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God.’” (Scoffield NKJV, footnote on John 5:18; pg 843; 1989)
Jesus by his own admission is
claiming to be God here! As Scoffield noted the words
“patera idion”
differentiates from metaphorically usage of Father. Jesus was literally saying
that God was his very literal Father (yet not in a physical sense, but in a
purely spiritual sense)! This would clearly mean that Jesus himself was saying
that his very nature WAS THE VERY SAME NATURE OF GOD HIMSELF. Since both
fathers and sons share the same nature, without the son being less than his
father in essence, similarly Jesus being God’s unique Son indicates his
equality with the Father in essence as well as his personally distinction, that
they are two distinct Persons who have the same Divine nature.
Interestingly, even the Old Testament writers knew that God has a Divine Son who was equal with him in nature:
"Who has gone up to heaven and
come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has
wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the
earth? What is his name, AND THE NAME OF HIS SON? Tell me if you
know!" Proverbs 30:4
According to the Jewish OT the One who established the earth is none other than Yahweh God:
For thus says the LORD, WHO CREATED THE HEAVENS, WHO IS GOD, Who formed the earth and made it, WHO HAS ESTABLISHED IT, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18
Agur is asking about the name “of the Son of God”, with
name here signifying the nature and essence of the subject. What Agur was
basically saying is that not only are God’s nature and ways incomprehensible to
man, but that the nature and acts of the Son are just as incomprehensible as
well. This is similar to what Jesus himself said:
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one
knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is
except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” Luke 10:22
Just as the Father is
incomprehensible so is his Son, and just as no one completely knows the Son
except the Father in a similar manner no one comprehensively knows the Father
except his Son!
Because we know that Jesus claimed to be THE Son of God the OT tells us how to treat him:
Serve the
LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be
angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. Psalms 2:11-12
In Psalm 2 we have a prophetic picture which should be read
in its entirety. It describes ~(vv. 2 and 3) the time when the nations will
stand against God and against his Anointed One (Mashiho, from which our English word
Messiah comes). God says in verse 6 that he will nevertheless establish this
Messiah as his King on
Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples
meditate vanity? Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have
been united together, Against Jehovah,
AND AGAINST HIS MESSIAH (Mashiho):
`Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.' He who is
sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them. Then doth He
speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them: `And I --
I have anointed My King, Upon
In verse 7 Messiah steps
forward to declare the decree by which his coronation shall be accomplished,
saying: "I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: "He said to me, 'You
are my Son; today I have become your Father. Ask of me, and I will make the
nations (goyim) your inheritance."' Furthermore, in Psalm 2:11-12 we are
solemnly instructed:
Serve the
LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. KISS THE SON (nashqu bar), lest He be angry, And you perish in the
way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put
their trust in Him. Psalms 2:11-12
The Hebrew for "kiss the Son" is nashqu bar. Even if this is translated, as some would have it, "Do homage in purity," the homage is to the Lord of verse 2 and to the Son of verse 7. The Tanakh clearly indicates that there is a Divine personality who is called the Son of God!
What is amusing is that even Allah and Muhammad recognized the implication of Jesus calling himself God’s Son “in a literal (albeit spiritual) way”:
Then God will say: ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to
mankind: "Worship me and my mother
as gods besides God?"’ S. 5:116
This is why the Quran instructed Muhammad to say:
Say: "If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I WOULD BE
THE FIRST TO WORSHIP HIM". S. 43:82
Ibn Kathir comments:
Allah has no Offspring Allah says:
[قُلْ]
(Say)
-- `O Muhammad' --
[إِن كَانَ
لِلرَّحْمَـنِ
وَلَدٌ
فَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ
الْعَـبِدِينَ]
(If the Most Gracious
had a son, then I am the first of the worshippers.) meaning, `if this were so,
then I would worship Him on that basis, because I am one of His servants; I
obey all that He commands me and I am not too arrogant or proud to worship Him.' This conditional
phrase does not mean that what is described could happen nor that is possible
as Allah says:
[لَّوْ
أَرَادَ
اللَّهُ أَن
يَتَّخِذَ
وَلَداً
لاَّصْطَفَى
مِمَّا
يَخْلُقُ مَا
يَشَآءُ
سُبْحَـنَهُ
هُوَ اللَّهُ
الْوَحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ
]
(Had
Allah willed to take a son, He could have chosen whom He willed out of those
whom He created. But glory be to Him! He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible.)
(39:4). Allah says here:
[سُبْحَـنَ
رَبِّ
السَّمَـوَتِ
وَالاٌّرْضِ
رَبِّ
الْعَرْشِ
عَمَّا
يَصِفُونَ ]
(Glorified is the Lord of the heavens
and the earth, the Lord of the Throne! Exalted be He from all that they ascribe
(to Him).) meaning, exalted and sanctified and glorified be the Creator of all
things far above having any offspring, for He is Unique, One and Eternally
Self-Sufficient. There is none equal to Him or like Him, and He does not have
any offspring.
[فَذَرْهُمْ
يَخُوضُواْ]
(So leave them (alone) to speak
nonsense) means, in their ignorance and misguidance,
[وَيَلْعَبُواْ]
(and
play) in their world,
[حَتَّى
يُلَـقُواْ
يَوْمَهُمُ
الَّذِى
يُوعَدُونَ]
(until they meet the Day of theirs
which they have been promised.) which is the Day of Resurrection, i.e., then
they will come to know what their end and destination will be on that Day. (Source; Tafsir Ibn Kathir; S. 43:82 emphasis
ours)
Some Muslims have attempted to link this passage to David, particularly Psalms 2:7; however this is easily refuted since neither the Holy Bible nor the Quran call David the Messiah nor do either claim that one must put their trust in David. Hence, to call David “the Son” in this verse would refute all of Islam and the Quran because this passage explicitly refers to THE MESSIAH, who is Jesus according to Islam!
The world-renown Greek NT scholar A.T. Robertson noted:
But
also called God his own Father (alla kai patera idion elege ton qeon). "His own" (idion) IN A SENSE NOT TRUE OF OTHERS. That is precisely what Jesus meant
by "My Father." See Romans
8:32 for o idioß uioß, "his own Son." Making himself equal with God
(ison eauton poiwn twi qewi). Isoß is an old common adjective (in
papyri also) and means equal. In Philippians
2:6 Paul calls the Pre-incarnate Christ isa qewi, "equal to God" (plural isa, attributes of God). Bernard thinks
that Jesus would not claim to be isoß qewi because in John
14:28 he says: "The Father is greater than I." And yet he says in
John
14:7 that the one who sees him sees in him the Father. Certainly the Jews understood Jesus to claim equality with the Father
in nature and privilege and power as also in John
10:33; John
19:7. Besides, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus on this point, it was open and easy for him to deny it and
to clear up the misapprehension. This is precisely what he does not do. On
the contrary Jesus gives a powerful apologetic in defence of his claim to
equality with the Father (verses John
19-47). (Source)
Hence, both the NT data along and the clear evidence from the OT show that Christ is Divine and that he made explicit claims to Deity. That’s why the Jews wanted him killed:
"The Jews answered him, ‘We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he has made himself THE SON OF GOD.’" John 19:7
"And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, ‘Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?’ But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE BLESSED?’ And Jesus said, ‘I AM; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’ And the high priest tore his garments, and said, ‘Why do we still need witnesses? You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?’ And they all condemned him as deserving death." Mark 14:60-64
Claiming to “be the literal (albeit spiritual) Son of God himself” was equivalent to claiming to be God which would be blasphemy if the person wasn’t who claimed to be. Yet if a person is indeed the actual, unique Son of God then such a person must be worshiped as Deity. When you take this with Jesus saying in John 10:30 it becomes strikingly clear that the Jews were beginning to stone him for claiming to be God himself!
2. “Before Abraham was I am”
Mr. Ahmed now proceeds to attack the divinity claim of Jesus
in John 8:58, which are known as the famous “I AM” saying. He says:
This is another
quotation which the Christians bring to show the divinity of Jesus. Its from John 8:58.
Lets analyze this verse.
“Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” (John
8:58)
The reasons
Christians give that Christ (pbuh) claimed divinity
here are:
A. Jesus existed
before Abraham.
B.“I am” is the name of God in the Bible (Exodus
3:14)
Lets analyze both the reasons.
A.
If
Jesus (pbuh) existed before Abraham that does not make him God in anyway
because even angels existed before Abraham. They existed before the world was
created. Does it make them God? No ! Jesus (pbuh) was with God before Abraham (pbuh) , but in what form? Was he like a handsome young man
moving around and then God reduced him to a small baby and put him in his
mother’s womb? No No ! It means in the knowledge of
God we all were there. Jeremiah is said to have been made a Prophet before his
birth. The Bible says
“Before I formed
thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest
forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the
nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)
In Islam, we share
somewhat a similar belief. The Quran says
“When thy Lord
drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants,
and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord
(who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do
testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this
we were never mindful":(Quran 7:172)
Response:
This defense that Jesus existed in the manner that Mr. Ahmed alleges is false in light of the Biblical data and Greek language structure. Sam Shamoun addresses this same argument in a debate with Mr. Ghounem, several years ago:
Ghounem:
Jesus knew he existed before the
world was made, but this doesn't prove he was God Almighty. (John 17:5) Many
angels also existed before the world was created. (Job 38:7).
Response:
The problem with Ghounem's comparison is that none of the
angels existed in the same divine glory that God existed in. Yet, Jesus claimed
that he personally existed in that very same divine glory:
"And now, Father, glorify me
in your presence with the glory I had WITH YOU before the world began."
John 17:5
Interestingly, Yahweh swears to never give his own glory to
another:
"I
am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my
praise to idols." Isaiah 42:8
"For my own sake, for my own
sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory
to another." Isaiah 48:11
Yet Jesus claims to have preexisted in the same glory that
the Father had before the creation of the world. This affirms that both Father
and Son are the one God Yahweh. (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Ghounem/iam.htm)
Comments: As you can see, Jesus
claimed to have the very same glory that God himself before the beginning of
creation. Moreover, what Mr. Ahmed will be shocked to know is that Jesus even
gives God a command. In his high priestly prayer, Jesus commands the Father to
glorify him with the glory Christ had with him before become flesh:
"And now, Father, GLORIFY ME (Greek- doxason Me) in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." John 17:5
The phrase, "glorify me" is a Greek imperative, with the word "glorify" being in the aorist tense. Noted Greek Grammarian Dr. Daniel B. Wallace comments on the Greek imperative with the aorist tense:
"The imperative is most commonly used for commands, outnumbering prohibitive imperatives about five to one. As a command, the imperative is usually from a superior to an inferior in rank. It occurs frequently with the aorist and present (only rarely with the perfect tense).
The basic force of the imperative of command involves somewhat different nuances with each tense. With the aorist, the force generally is to command the action as a whole, without focusing on duration, repetition, etc. In keeping with its aspectual force, the aorist puts forth a summary command..." (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics [Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids MI, 1996], p. 485; bold emphasis)
As Wallace noted, the imperative is a command usually given from a superior to an inferior in rank, but not always. In the case of John 17:5, it is two equals addressing each other. The very reason why Jesus can demand to be glorified by the Father is because Christ is equal to the latter in his Divine nature, being fully God also. It is very clear from the Greek text that Jesus didn’t exist as just a thought or just in the mind of God as Mr. Ahmed claims. You could only command a person to do this if you were a person, in Jesus case, before the world began, and not a thought. Sam Shamoun says this perfectly:
Response:
Furthermore, Jesus is presented in the very same Gospel as the Creator of all things. This would also include the angelic host of heaven:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made… He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him… The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1-3, 10, 14
Ghounem's comparison does not hold any weight. (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Ghounem/iam.htm)
Comments: If Mr. Ahmed holds to the view that Jesus existed only in the manner of the Angels then he also has to be consist and conclude that the Angels helped God create the universe! He is also implying that God used a created being to create the universe!
B.
The Christians
claim that “I am” is the name of God in the Bible in Exodus 3:14. The verse
reads
“And God said unto
Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt
thou say unto the children of
“Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, God ( I am.)”
We have no objection in agreeing that God was there before
Abraham.
If
Jesus was claiming divinity here. He should have at least remained consistent in the usage of
words. In Exodus 3:14 the word for “I am” is “haw-yaw’ Where as the word
in John 8:58 is “Ego Eimi”
This is sufficient to prove that in John 8:58 Jesus did not claim divinity.
Response:
Sam Shamoun has again addressed this matter and perfectly says this:
Response:
It is true that Christians have traditionally linked John 8:58 to Exodus 3:14, yet not all Christians do so. Christians such as myself are aware that in Exodus God is revealing his personal covenant name to Moses, whereas in John 8:58 the shift is not on who Jesus is but rather on how long Christ has been in existence. It is Jesus’ comment on the duration of his existence that identifies him as Yahweh God, a fact that will soon become apparent in our rebuttal to Ghounem. (http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Ghounem/iam.htm)
Comments: This brings us to the second part of this response for Mr. Ahmed believes that Jesus I AM sayings only prove that he existed before Abraham, similar to the angels and that if he didn’t claim the full title of Exodus 3:14 he isn’t claiming to be God. The problem for Ahmed is that he doesn’t have a shred of understanding of what the Greek words mean in this passage:
Meaning of the verb Genesthai and its related verb form Ginomai
Robertson, Word Pictures In The New Testament, John 8:58
{Before Abraham was} (prin abraam genesqai). Usual idiom with prin in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of ginomai) and the accusative of general reference, "before coming as to Abraham," "before Abraham came into existence or was born." {I am} (egw eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesqai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in # 1:1 and egeneto in # 1:14. See the contrast also in # Ps 90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genhqhnai). See the same use of eimi in # Joh 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.
The late AT Robertson was one of the greatest Greek scholars and linguists of all time, and any study Greek would lead to the same conclusion given above. Jesus used the same absolute phrase used of God only, unless Mr. Ahmed wants us to believe now that God existed as a thought!
Vincent's Word Studies on John 8:58
Was, I am (genesqai, egw
eimi). It is important to observe the distinction between the two verbs. Abraham's
life was under the conditions of time, and therefore had a temporal beginning.
Hence, Abraham came into being, or was born (genesqai). Jesus'
life was from and to eternity. Hence the formula for absolute, timeless
existence, I am (egw eimi).
Meaning of the verb Eimi
Louw-Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament:
Semantic Domains, p.157
13.69 eimi:
to exist, in an absolute sense - 'to be, to exist.' Pisteusai
… hoti estin 'must have faith … that (God) exists' He 11:6; pro tou
tov kosmon eivai 'before the world existed' Jn 17:5; kalountos ta ma
onta hos onta 'whose command brings into being what did not exist' Ro 4:17;
en auto gar zomen kai kinometha kay esmen 'in whom we live and move
about and have our existence' Ac 17:28
Friberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon
The Greek text of the NT thoroughly refutes Mr. Ahmed’s explanation. Just like Muslims can turn to the Arabic text of the Quran to prove or disprove an argument, so can Christians do the same with the NT. Jesus literally claim to exist for all eternity which is only applicable to God himself and not like any of the angels who were created before the creation of the universe! He isn’t necessarily claiming to be God based on Exodus 3:14, he is claiming to be God based on the very attribute of God himself “Eternal existence with no end or beginning”. To hit home this says:
Witmer, Did Jesus Claim to be God, Bibliotheca Sacra, January 1961, pp.152-153
The most emphatic claim of Jesus to deity is the statement in His discussion with the Jews, "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58, A.S.V.) The Jews brought the name of Abraham, their physical and spiritual father, into the conversation (vss. 52-53). Jesus seized upon it to lead on to His final claim in the verse already quoted, startling the Jews by saying: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad" (vs. 56). When the Jews responded with a question as to how a man as young as Jesus could have seen Abraham, "Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God." [Archibald Thomas Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, V, 158-59.]
Jesus did not claim mere pre-existence to Abraham, which would have been expressed by the imperfect tense of the verb used concerning Abraham, but eternal existence, the self-existence that belongs to God alone.
If Jesus was merely claiming to exist before Abraham like the angels THEN HE WOULD HAVE EXPRESSED THIS CLAIM IN THE IMPERFECT TENSE! Many Christians who study Christianity already know this and such foolish Muslim propaganda only makes the denizens of Allah look like ill prepared amateurs! How would it look like if I made a claim from the English translation of the Quran and then what I claim was disproved by the Arabic text? Foolish! This is how Mr. Ahmed looks right about now! Claiming that Jesus I AM statements only imply he existed only before Abraham like the angels when this must be rendered in the imperfect tense!
3. “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the
Father, but by me.”
4. “he that hath seen me hath seen the
Father”
I’ll reply to these two verses together. They are from John 14:6
and John 14:9 respectively.
Lets read the verses in context.
1"Do
not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am
going there to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I
will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4You know the way to the place where I am
going."
5Thomas
said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know
the way?" (John 14:1-5)
In context we read that Jesus Christ (pbuh)
is talking about God Almighty. Verse 2 gives the answer. Jesus says “In my
FATHER’S house”. He is talking about going to paradise, he is talking about
spiritual matters, they are thinking of some geographical location. So Jesus (pbuh) gives the reply.
“6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and
the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
He is the way to God. Every Prophet during his time was the way to God. At the
time of Moses (pbuh) he was the way to God. The
Children of Israel chose another way through golden calf, it wasn’t accepted
from them. At the time of Noah (pbuh) he was the way
to God. If you had to get saves, just get into the ark, that’s all ! At the
time of Jesus (pbuh) he was the way to God. But
today, it’s the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), he
is the way to Almighty God.
7If you
really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him
and have seen him." (John 14:7)
Here Jesus (pbuh) is saying that if you
know me, you know God i.e. if you follow me, you are indirectly following
Almighty God. Seeing God here means knowing God as we can see from the verse.
8Philip
said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." (John
14:8)
Here Philip is asking Jesus (pbuh) to
show him God. The Bible says
“No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18)
“But," he (God) said, "you cannot see my face, for no
one may see me and live." (Exodus 33:20)
Note : The
word “God” in bracket is mine.
Being a Jew, he knew that no man can see God and live, making such an absurd
request to Jesus (pbuh) of showing the father. So
Jesus (pbuh) replies
9Jesus
answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such
a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show
us the Father'? (John 14:9)
Jesus (pbuh) is saying to Phillips that
he had been with him for so long and still making such an silly request of
showing God, so Jesus says that “Anyone who has seen me has seen the father”
meaning if you know me, you know Almighty God as well. You follow my teachings;
you are following the teachings of Almighty God.
In context, we come to know that anyone who knows Jesus (pbuh) i.e. anyone who follows Jesus (pbuh)
is indirectly following Almighty God to which we have no objection. Verses 1-2
give the context.
Response:
Like his fellow co-propagandists before him, Mr. Ahmed has to do a lot of tongue twisting to hide the obvious here. He claims that when Jesus mentioned that “he was the only way to God that IT WASN’T ACTUALLY THE CASE BUT THAT ALL PROPHETS WERE THE WAY! The usage of John 1:18 is quite hilarious also for Mr. Ahmed didn’t post the entire scripture, to give you the entire meaning. Again Sam Shamoun of answering-islam.org has addressed this very same issue:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_seeing_god1.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_seeing_god2.htm
We quote here:
Question:
The Bible says that God has never been seen (cf. John 1:18), and yet Jesus was seen and heard. This again proves that Jesus cannot be God.
Answer:
Just as in Part 1 (on John 5:37), a careful reading of the passage helps to resolve the problem. Notice that in John 1:18, the Evangelist says that God's Son, WHO HIMSELF IS GOD, has made God known. How did he do this? By becoming flesh. John therefore affirms that GOD has appeared visibly and revealed himself to others when the Son took on human nature. (Cf. John 1:1-3, 10-11, 14)
Furthermore, the God whom no one has seen is the Father. Note the text again:
"No one has ever seen God. It is GOD the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known." NRSV
So this in itself suffices as a response since John is not denying that God has ever been seen, but that the Father has never been seen.
With that said, we must now understand what John meant that the Father has never been seen.
A careful examination of the context shows that John is actually expounding upon the Greek Septuagint (LXX) of Exodus 33:7-20:
"And Moses took his TABERNACLE (ten skenen autou) and PITCHED IT without the camp, at a distance from the camp; and it was called THE TABERNACLE of Testimony (skene marturiou): and it came to pass that every one that sought the Lord went forth to THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen) which was without the camp. And whenever Moses went into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen) without the camp, all the people stood every one watching by the doors OF HIS TENT (tes skenes autou); and when Moses departed, they took notice until he entered into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen). And when Moses entered into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen), THE PILLAR OF THE CLOUD DESCENDED, and stood at the door of THE TABERNACLE (tes skene), and God talked to Moses. And all the people SAW THE PILLAR OF THE CLOUD standing by the door of THE TABERNACLE (tes skenes), and all the people stood and worshipped every one at the door OF HIS TENT (tes skenes autou). And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as if one should speak to his friend; and he retired into the camp: but his servant Joshua the son of Naue, a young man, departed not forth FROM THE TABERNACLE (ek tes skenes). And Moses said to the Lord, Lo! thou sayest to me, Lead on this people; but thou hast not shewed me whom thou wilt send with me, but thou hast said to me, I know thee above all, and thou hast favour with me. If then I have found favour in thy sight, reveal thyself to me, that I may evidently see thee; that I may find favour in thy sight, and that I may know that this great nation is thy people. And he says, I myself will go before thee, and give thee rest. And he says to him, If thou go not up with us thyself, bring me not up hence. And how shall it be surely known, that both I and this people have found favour with thee, except only if thou go with us? So both I and thy people shall be glorified beyond all the nations, as many as are upon the earth. And the Lord said to Moses, I will also do for thee this thing, which thou hast spoken; for thou hast found grace before me, and I know thee above all. And Moses says, Manifest thyself to me. And God said, I will pass by before thee WITH MY GLORY (te doxe mou), and I will call by my name, the Lord, before thee; and I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and will have pity on whom I will have pity. And God said, Thou shalt not be able to see my face; FOR NO MAN SHALL SEE MY FACE, and live. Exodus 33:7-20
Carefully note that the passage states that the pillar of cloud descended
upon the Tent (skene) in full view of
"Then the cloud covered THE TENT OF MEETING
(ten skenen tou marturiou), AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD FILLED THE TABERNACLE
(kai doxes kuriou eplesthe he skene). Moses could not enter the Tent of
Meeting because the cloud had settled upon it, AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD
FILLED THE TABERNACLE (kai doxes kuriou eplesthe he skene). In all the
travels of the Israelites, whenever the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle,
they would set out; but if the cloud did not lift, they did not set out-until
the day it lifted. So the cloud of the LORD was over the tabernacle by day, and
fire was in the cloud by night, in the sight of all the house of
Furthermore, in Exodus 33 Moses asked God to manifest himself, to show Moses his face. In other words, Moses wanted to see a full blown manifestation of God's glory as opposed to seeing a small veiled glimpse of it. God responds by saying that no one can see the fullness of his Divine glory, the visible revelation of his complete essence. We know that this what Moses meant since Exodus clearly says that God appeared to Moses and the latter saw him:
"Then He said to Moses, 'Come up to the LORD,
you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of
Therefore, Moses was asking to see the whole bare essential Divine glory visibly manifested before him, not just a small veiled portion of God's glorious majesty.
With this in mind, let us now turn to John's prologue:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh AND PITCHED HIS TENT AMONG US (kai eskenosen en hemin). WE HAVE SEEN HIS GLORY (ten doxan autou), THE GLORY OF THE ONE AND ONLY (doxan hos monogenous), WHO CAME FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, 'This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me."' From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."
The verb eskenosen comes from skenoo, where we get skene or tabernacle, the very word used in the Greek version of Exodus 33 and 40! It is clear that by using the terms skene and doxa, and by referencing Moses, John is presenting the Lord Jesus as the very glory of God who pitched his tent among us. In other words, Jesus' physical body is the permanent tabernacle for the fullness of God's glory to reside in. This means that when John says no one has seen God, John is referring to the fact that no one has seen God fully manifestating his glorious essence. Yet Jesus permanently houses God's glory and essence in the flesh. This is why Christ could speak of his physical body as God's tabernacle, and why the glory cloud descended upon him, just as it had descended upon the tabernacle:
"Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Peter said to Jesus, 'Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three TABERNACLES (skenas) here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.' While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, 'This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!'" Matthew 17:1-5
"Jesus answered them, 'Destroy THIS
Thus, John's prologue is essentially saying that the unseen, invisible God has visibly manifested his glory by appearing in human form. And that human form just so happens to be the human nature, the very physical body, of God's eternal Son, the Lord Jesus Christ!
Far from disproving the Deity of the Lord Jesus, John's prologue does a superb and masterful job of demonstrating it (obviously due to divine inspiration of course)!
(http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_seeing_god2.htm)
Comments: This clearly explains what it means in which God can be seen! Mr. Ahmed also seems to be ignorant of the Quran also for it shows that Moses saw Allah:
Has the story of Moses Reached Thee? BEHOLD HE SAW A FIRE: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye: I perceive a fire; perhaps I can Bring you some burning brand Therefrom, or find some guidance At the fire." But when he came to the fire, a voice Was heard: "O Moses" "VERILY I AM THY LORD! Therefore (in My presence) Put off thy shoes: thou art In the sacred valley Tuwa. "I have chosen thee: Listen, then, to the inspiration (Sent to thee). "VERILY, I AM GOD: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), And establish regular prayer For celebrating My praise. Verily the hour is coming- My design is to keep it Hidden- for every soul To its reward By the measure of its endeavor. Therefore let not such as Believe not therein But follow their own Lusts, divert thee therefrom, Lest thou perish!" "And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?" He said, "It is My rod: on it I lean; with it I beat down fodder For my flocks; and In it I find Have Other uses." (God) said, "Throw it, O Moses!" H e threw it, and behold it was a snake Active in motion. (God) said "Seize it And fear not: We shall return it at once To its former condition... Now draw thy hand Close to thy side: It shall come forth white (And shining), without harm (or stain),- As a another Sign,- In order that we may show thee (Two) of our Greater Signs. Go thou to Pharaoh For he has indeed Transgressed all bounds." S. 20:9-24
Behold! Moses said to his family "I perceive A fire; soon will I bring you From there some information, Or I will Bring you A burning brand to light our fuel That ye may Warm yourselves." But when he came To the (Fire), a voice Was heard: "Blessed are those In the Fire and those around: AND GLORY TO GOD, THE LORD OF THE WORLDS. "O Moses! VERILY I AM GOD, THE EXALTED IN MIGHT, THE WISE!... "Now do throw thy rod!" But when he saw it Moving (of its own accord) As if it had been a snake, He turned back in Retreat, And retraced not his steps: "O Moses!" (it was said), "Fear not: truly, in My presence, Those called as apostles Have no fear,- But if Any have done wrong And have thereafter substituted Good to take the place of the evil, Truly, I am Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. "Now put thy hand into Thy bosom, and it will Come forth white without stain (Or harm): (These are) among The nine Signs (thou wilt take) To Pharaoh and his people: For they are A people Rebellious in transgression." But when Our Signs came To them, that should opened their eyes, they said: "This is Sorcery manifest!" And they rejected those Signs In iniquity and arrogance, Though their Souls were convinced Thereof: so see what was The end of those Who acted corruptly. S. 27:7-14
Now when Moses had fulfilled The term, and was
traveling With his family, he perceived A fire in the direction of
Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- AND TO MOSES ALLAH SPOKE DIRECT;- S. 4:164
Here we clearly see that this was God that appeared to Moses as the burning bush, HENCE MOSES SAW GOD! There are tons of places in the Bible where people saw God. Time would fail me to show all these examples. Basically by using John 1:18 Mr. Ahmed has only shown us that the God they didn’t see was the father but the God who appeared in the OT was
It is GOD the only Son
God the only Son, Jesus Christ!
5. “In the beginning was the word, the
word was with God and the word was God.”
The above statement is from John 1:1
First of all, to remind the Christians that it is NOT Jesus Christ
(pbuh) speaking here. So this statement is just made
by some other person. Its not the statement of Jesus (pbuh).
Let me reveal some deception in the Biblical Translation here.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God , and
the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
The word used for
God in this verse is “theos”.
The Europeans have evolved a
system, they put a capital “G” for God when they refer to Almighty God
and put a small “g” when referring to some other deity. When they speak about
Hindu and Greek gods and goddesses they put a small “g”.
When the
Christians speak about Jesus (pbuh). They put a
capital “G”, when the same word “theos” is used for
somebody else, the Christians put a small “g”. Consider the following.
“4The god (theos)
of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers,” (II Corinthians 4:4)
The same word “theos” is used here, which is used in John 1:1. But the
Christians have put a small “g” here. Take another example.
“19Their destiny is destruction, their god (theos) is their stomach,” (Philippians 3:19)
Again, they have
put a small “g” when translating for something/somebody else. However, the King
James Version is honest in translating Philippians 3:19. The above translation
is from NIV.
So we see from
the above examples, the deception of the Biblical Translators. When it comes to
Jesus (pbuh), they translate the word “theos” as “God”. Consider one more example.
“8But
about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God (theos),
will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your
kingdom.” (Hebrews 1:8)
Again, when it is
referring to Jesus (pbuh), they put a capital “G”.
For detailed
response to John 1:1. Refer to this 2-part rebuttal by Brother Sami Zaatari.
Response:
I can’t believe that Mr. Ahmed would post II Corinthians 4:4 and compare it with John 1:1! He then tries to elaborate on how it’s a European conspiracy by changing God from “g” to “G”! Mr. Ahmed is obviously clueless of the Greek text he discusses for it isn’t the word “theos” but the articles used with it that determines if “g” or “G” is used.
Greek: KAI HO LOGOS EN PROS TON THEON
English: And the Word
was with God
The first occurrence is TON THEON and not HO
THEOS as in II Corinthians 4:4.
Greek: KAI THEOS EN HO LOGOS
English: And God
was the Word
This is why Satan is called “a god” because
Ton Theon isn’t used for him. This is
very embarrassing indeed because Mr. Ahmed has rehashed the same old Ahmed
Deedat argument which not only was exposed and embarrassed for mistranslating
this scripture. For more on this see www.answering-islam.org/Green/deedat.htm. There is no
European conspiracy, it is only the conspiracy of ignorance running rampant
with the authors of “Answering Christianity”. If Mr. Ahmed would have actually
researched this he would have never embarrassed himself with this comparison!
This deception is
not only there in the New Testament, but it is also there in the Old Testament.
“1 In
the beginning God (elohim) created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis
1:1)
When it is
referring to Almighty God. They have used a capital “G” But when it refers to
somebody else, they put a small “g”
6 "I said, 'You are "gods" (elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.' (Psalms
82:6)
However, this deception is also there in Exodus 7:1 in the King James Version. They put a small “g” when referring to Moses (pbuh), but NIV has put a capital “G”.
Much like not looking into the Greek text, Mr. Ahmed doesn’t look into the Hebrew text either! Jesus was a Rabbi and he was using the Rabbinical tradition of Psalms 82:6 which is referring to judges. For more info see:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0017-8160(196604)59%3A2%3C186%3ATRIOP8%3E2.0.CO%3B2-1
6. “That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour
the Father”
The above statement is from John 5:23.
The Christians bring up this statement to show that Jesus (pbuh) is divine. Let us analyze the verse and see what did
Jesus (pbuh) actually mean when he said those words.
That all men should honour the Son, even
as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth
not the Father which hath sent him. (John 5:23)
So we see that Jesus (pbuh) is saying
that anyone who doesn’t honour the son does not honour the father. That is True! If you do not honour Jesus (pbuh), indirectly
you do not honour Almighty God. If you do not follow
his message, you do not follow the message of Almighty God.
Response:
This same argument was copied from Sami Zaatari, another co religionist of Mr. Ahmed. We’ve already addressed this article also, here are some excerpts in response to Zaatari:
Basically Zaatari takes “honouring Jesus as you would honour his father” as assuming that Jesus is a prophet and therefore believing in him would allow you to believe in God. The immediate problem that arises, if we assume that his comments to be true, is that if you:
honour the Son, even as they honour the Father
Then:
This fact is inescapable
because the NT verse makes no distinction between Jesus and the Father here,
since it says to honour Jesus as you would honour the Father. This means that
both must be honored in the same way and to the same degree. Zaatari loves to claim that Christians don’t quote
everything in the immediate context and yet he apparently forgot to quote the
previous verses before it:
Jesus said to them, 'Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do
nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the
Father does, THE SON DOES LIKEWISE. The Father loves the Son and shows
him all that he himself is doing; and he will show him greater works than
these, so that you will be astonished. Indeed, just as the Father raises the
dead and gives them life, SO ALSO THE SON GIVES LIFE TO WHOMEVER HE WISHES.
The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, SO
THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. Anyone who does
not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.’ John 5:19-23
The immediate context shows the reason why Jesus must be honoured JUST AS THE FATHER because he has the ability to do “whatever the Father does” which includes giving life to whomever he wishes. The passage also says that GOD THE FATHER will judge no one but has entrusted this to Jesus alone. In the Quran, it is Allah and only Allah alone that judges on the Day of Judgment:
The Jews say: "The Christians
have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught
(to stand) upon." Yet they (profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto
their word is what those say who know not; BUT ALLAH WILL JUDGE between
them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. S. 2:113
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself
and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those
who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of
Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I WILL JUDGE
between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. S. 3:55
(These are) the ones who wait and
watch about you: if ye do gain a victory from Allah, they say: "Were we
not with you?"- but if the unbelievers gain a success, they say (to them):
"Did we not gain an advantage over you, and did we not guard you from the
believers?" BUT ALLAH WILL JUDGE BETWIXT YOU on the Day of Judgment.
And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumph) over the
believers. S. 4:141
This lets us know that the person who will judge on the Day
of Judgment (sometimes mentioned as "that day" in the Bible) would be
God. Therefore if Jesus said that he would judge and both the Quran and the
Bible say that God judges during the Day of Judgment then Jesus is clearly
claiming to be God. Are there any references to Jesus judging in the future?
The answer is clearly yes:
"Not
everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only
he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on
that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name
drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly,
'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" Matthew 7:21-23
"When the Son of Man comes
in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in
heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will
separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the
goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then
the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my
Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation
of the world'... Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me,
you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"
Matthew 25:31-34, 41
According to the OT it is God who
will gather the nations in judgment, separating them as one separates the sheep
from the rams:
"As
for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge
between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats." Ezekiel
34:17
"In those days and at that
time, when I restore the fortunes of
Thus, Jesus’ claim to judge provides a direct witness to
his Deity, and also indicates that the reason why the Father entrusted the Son
to judge is so that all may recognize him as God. In other words, by claiming
to be the Judge Jesus is claming to be God since the OT, including the Quran,
says that God will judge the nations. Jesus own words mentioned above claimed
that he will judge everyone and that God gave all judgment to him! If Jesus is
claiming to Judge all and then the O.T. and the Quran says that only God judges
then apparently Jesus is saying that HE IS GOD. If he isn't they why say that
God judges and then say that he is the one to judge. In a court of law this
would be an explicit statement or claim. To simplify this even furthers, the
reason why individuals must honor Jesus like they honor God is because Jesus is
God and proves it by performing a Divine function which both the Hebrew
Scriptures and the Quran attribute to God! (http://answer-islam.org/honor_of_jesus.html)
We even went back to the Greek text to disprove Sami Zaatari and Mr. Ahmed, after him, for claiming that this verse doesn’t allow Jesus to be worshiped and honored like he is God:
SO THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON JUST AS THEY HONOR THE
FATHER
Hence, if we honour Jesus LIKE THE FATHER WHO IS GOD THEN:
If you give a person the same reverence as someone else you must commit the same acts and think the same way of the other person also. In fact the word used for “EVEN AS” or “JUST AS” is Kathos and is defined as:
|
Definition |
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|
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King James Word Usage - Total: 182 |
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as 138, even as 36, according as 4, when 1,
according to 1, how 1, as well as + (2532)&version=kjv 1 |
This word means that you
must honour Jesus EQUALLY AS YOU WOULD HONOUR GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. The late
A.T. Robertson, one of the foremost Greek NT scholars of our time, has this to
say about this verse:
That
all may honour the Son (ina panteß timwsin ton uion). Purpose clause with ina and present active subjunctive of timaw (may keep on honouring the Son). He
that honoureth not the Son (o mh timwn ton uion). Articular present active
participle of timaw with negative mh. Jesus claims here the same right to worship from men that the Father
has. Dishonouring Jesus is dishonouring the Father who sent him (Matthew
8:49; Matthew
12:26; Matthew
15:23; 1 John
2:23). See also Luke
10:16. There is small comfort here for those who praise Jesus as teacher
and yet deny his claims to worship. The Gospel of John carries this high place
for Christ throughout, but so do the other Gospels (even Q, the Logia of Jesus)
and the rest of the New Testament. (Source)
Using the Greek text
disproves Zaatari completely and his so-called
explanation. Christians are right to believe that Jesus is to be worshipped
like God Almighty since that is what the ancient NT text is explicitly saying.
Hence, Zaatari has no case whatsoever.
There can be no differentiation here as Zaatari tries
to claim. The following examples show this very well:
If ye keep my commandments, ye
shall abide in my love; EVEN AS I
have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10
Notice here that “Kathos” refers to EQUALLY KEEPING THE COMMAND AND ABIDING IN LOVE LIKE JESUS DID WITH HIS FATHER.
They are not of the world, EVEN AS I am not of the world. John
17:16
“Kathos”
here is equally saying that Jesus’ followers do not belong to this fallen,
sinful world just like he isn’t since they belong to God. (http://answer-islam.org/honor_of_jesus.html)
Comments: As you can clearly see,
the Greek text, as shown by Mr. Robertson by using the articular present active
participle of “timaw” with the negative “mh” along with the purpose clause with
“ina and present active subjunctive of timaw” shows that Jesus is claiming the
same right to be worship like he is God. Mr. Ahmed can go on explaining away as
he pleases the Greek NT disproves him thoroughly!
The next verse makes it clearer
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth
my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and
shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” (John
5:24)
So we see here that Jesus (pbuh) is saying
that if you hear his word and believe in “HIM THAT SENT ME” i.e. Almighty God,
then you will have everlasting life. So we see that honoring Jesus (pbuh) simply means to believe in him. The doctrine that he
gave was not his it was of God.
“…and the word which ye hear is NOT mine, but the Father's
which sent me” (John 14:24)
Response:
Mr. Ahmed is also very deceitful in his dealing of John 14:24, he eliminates the first half to give a false meaning to this verse:
He who
does not love Me DOES NOT KEEP MY WORDS; and the word which you hear is
not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. John 14:24
Even though Christ gave honor to the father in claiming
that "the word which you hear is not mine" he yet verifies that these
are MY WORDS. We see that God was the author of these words meaning that
technically they came from the father but yet they are the words of Christ
also. This is clearly telling us that God's words (the father in this case) are
still Christ's words even though the person that they came through was
different. Since no other prophets ever claimed that God's words was their own,
Jesus is explicitly saying that even though these come from the father, they
are still his words, meaning that What God says is what I say or that God's
words is his very own words, which makes him God. Also Jesus tells us how to
believe on “HIM WHO SENT HIM” WITH THIS:
And this
is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son AND BELIEVES
IN HIM may have everlasting life; and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST
DAY." John 6:40
Most assuredly, I SAY TO YOU, he
who believes in Me has everlasting life John 6:47
This is totally different from what the Quran says in Surah
17:49-51 and 16:38
And they say: When we are bones and
fragments, shall we forsooth, be raised up as a new creation? Say: Be ye
stones or iron. Or some created thing that is yet greater in your thoughts!
Then they will say: WHO SHALL BRING US BACK (TO LIFE). Say: HE WHO
CREATED YOU AT THE FIRST. Then will they shake their heads at thee, and
say: When will it be? Say: It will perhaps be soon; S.17:49-51
And they swear by Allah their most
binding oaths (that) ALLAH WILL NOT RAISE UP HIM WHO DIETH. Nay, but it
is a promise (binding) upon Him in truth, but most of mankind know not,
S.16:38
From these Quranic verses, we clearly see that Allah gives
everlasting life and resurrection. Compared to these verses, since Allah only
does this, Jesus himself, is clearly saying that he is the one whose going to
do the very actions of God himself, therefore again claiming deity. By his own
admission, Jesus makes himself God with these statements. Who can raise the
dead in both Islam, Judaism and Christianity? Only God. Since Jesus claims to
do what only God does then he is claiming to be God. If Muslims object to this
then tell them to show you one verse from any of the books (Bible and Quran) in
where other people along with God can raise the dead by their OWN POWER.
For God
so loved the world that He gave HIS ONLY begotten Son, that WHOEVER
BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did
not send HIS SON into the world to condemn the world, but that the world
through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17
This passage says it all!
So if anyone believes in Jesus (pbuh) and
follows his word, he follows Almighty God. The Quran
tells us the same thing.
“Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah
will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most
Merciful." (Quran 3:31)
Here Almighty God is commanding Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
to say to the people, that if you love Almighty God than follow the Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh).
Same is said by Jesus Christ (pbuh), that if you do
not believe in Jesus (pbuh), if you do not honour him, you do not believe in Almighty God, you do not honour Almighty God.
Response:
In the Quran Muslims want us to believe that Jesus preached
"follow God Only" this is in stark contrast to what Jesus actually
said in the Bible. From the section above we see that Jesus says to believe ON
HIM, not God. Muslims don't like this idea and that is the main difference
between Islam and Christianity today. So in other words they don't want you to
believe in Jesus as the Son of God. Jesus knew that these type of people would
come so here is his words on this matter:
"He
who believes in Him is not condemned; but HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE is
condemned already, because he has not believed in the THE NAME OF THE ONLY
BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. John 3:18
Notice in the Quran before virtually all the surahs, it
says in THE NAME OF ALLAH. Jesus doesn't say in the name of God but in the NAME
OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which was himself. Muslims don't believe this so
according to Jesus own words they are condemned to eternal damnation. Why do
Muslims not like this to be known by Christians? Jesus has the answer:
And this
is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved
darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For EVERYONE
practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his
deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his
deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
The condemnation talked about by Jesus was the idea of not
believing in the ONLY SON of God. Since Muslims fall under this category Jesus
says that people like this love evil and that this light revealed by him, which
is rejected by Islam, hates the light and therefore is EVIL. This clearly tells
us that people no matter how nice they are and how nice their religion claims
to be, is viewed as pure evil in the sight of Jesus and God if they reject him
as the SON OF GOD. Therefore we must conclude that Islam is evil.
If someone still insists that Jesus (pbuh)
is here claiming to be equal to God, then Jesus (pbuh)
himself refutes such a thing. He says
“….for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
“My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all…”
(John 10:29)
Hence, we can see that Jesus (pbuh) did not claim divinity here.
Response:
It is quite obvious that Mr. Ahmed has nothing useful to bring against the Deity of Jesus. This passage doesn’t prove that God is greater than Jesus in the same way that God is greater than a man. He assumes that this is what Jesus meant, that just as God is greater than any creature he is also greater than Christ. Robertson notes:
Greater
than I (meizwn
mou). Ablative case
mou
after the comparative meizwn (from positive megaß). The filial relation makes this necessary. Not a distinction in nature
or essence (cf. 10:30),
but in rank in the Trinity. No Arianism or Unitarianism here. The very
explanation here is proof of the deity of the Son (Dods). (Source)
The Greek text isn’t saying that God is greater than Jesus in the way that the Creator is greater than a creature. The Father is greater than the Son in the same way that the president is greater than the vice-president. Would Ahmed claim that the one human being is more human than the other since one happens to be greater by virtue of being the president? Of course not, since both the president and vice-president ARE EQUAL IN NATURE, having the same human dignity and value in the eyes of God, with the difference in greatness being one of rank and position only.
In light of this backdrop, let us now deal with what Jesus intended to convey to his disciples that the Father was greater than he. In the first place, the term for "greater" (Greek - meizon) does not necessarily imply one who is greater in nature or essence. It can refer to someone or something being greater in position and/or authority, just as the following passages show:
"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater (meizon) than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matthew 11:11
John being greater than all those born of women does not imply that the rest were less human than John, or that they were inferior to John in nature. Here, the term must mean that John was greater in position and rank.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater (meizon) than his master, nor is one who is sent greater (meizon) than the one who sent him." John 13:16
Both the slave and the one sent are just as human as the master and the sender, having the same human essence and nature that the master and sender have. Thus, greater here must mean in position and authority, not in essence and nature.
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater (meizona) things than these, because I am going to the Father." John 14:12
Jesus' disciples did not perform better works, but performed a greater number of works than Christ since they reached far more people than Jesus did while he was on earth. Hence, the term "greater" refers to quantity, the amount of works, as opposed to quality since the disciples performed the same type of works but in far greater number.
The preceding data shows that the word meizon can either mean, depending upon the context, greater in nature, position, or even both. Thus, the only way we can know for certain what Jesus meant by saying that the Father was greater than him is by reading his statement in its immediate context. A careful look at the entire chapter of 14 shows the Lord Jesus claiming to have all of God's omni-attributes. Here is the same text again which we cited earlier:
"And I WILL DO whatever you ask IN MY NAME, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask ME for anything in my name, AND I WILL DO IT." John 14:13-14
Christ is capable of personally answering all prayers that are directed to him or are addressed in his name. The only way that Christ can both hear and answer all these prayers is if he is both omniscient and omnipotent!
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, AND I AM IN YOU. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:20-21
Christ says that he is IN all the disciples, an impossible claim if he was only a man, or even an angel. But since Jesus is God, and since God is omnipresent, it therefore makes perfect sense for Christ to say he is able to dwell in all the believers at the same time.
Finally:
"Jesus replied, ‘If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make OUR home with him.’" John 14:23
Both the Father and the Son make their home with all true believers! Christ is clearly claiming co-equality with the Father since he is present with every believer in the same way that the Father is! What the foregoing basically shows is that Christ, although equal with the Father in the Divine essence, was lesser than him in position while on earth, obviously as a result of his assuming the role of a slave. The inspired and blessed Apostle Paul sums this up best:
“Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: WHO, BEING IN VERY NATURE GOD, did not consider equality (isa) with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became OBEDIENT TO DEATH-- even DEATH ON A CROSS! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the NAME OF JESUS every knee should bow, IN HEAVEN and ON EARTH and UNDER THE EARTH, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:5-11
Although Jesus is in very nature God, and therefore equal in essence with God, Paul says that Christ did not cling to his equality but set it aside in order to assume the form of a slave by becoming a man. Again Mr. Ahmed is quoting the Bible without understanding the Greek meaning behind the text.
7. Thomas said “My Lord, and my God”
The above statement is from (John 20:28)
Firstly, this statement is not of Jesus (pbuh).
It is of Thomas. Let us read the verse in context.
John 20
20After he
said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were
overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again
Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending
you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive
the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are
forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
24Now
Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not
with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told
him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I
see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put
my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
So we see, that after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh). The disciples had seen Jesus (pbuh)
alive. Thomas did not believe that. So he demanded to see the nail marks in his
hands and put his finger where the nails were and put his side into his side.
26A week later his disciples were in the house
again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and
stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he (Jesus)
said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your
hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
Thomas doubted that Jesus (pbuh) was
alive, so Jesus (pbuh) shows him his hands and asks
him to put his hand into his (Jesus’s) side and stop
doubting and believe that he is still Alive. This was surprising to Thomas, So
Thomas exclaimed.
“28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
This was a mere exclamation by Thomas. In day-to-day life, we
utter things like “Oh My God! What have I done?” “Oh My God ! Its so
late” Does it mean I am calling my hearer a God?
29Then
Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed;
blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Believed what? Believed that he is God? No !! Believe that Jesus (pbuh) is still alive and NOT dead. Din’t
Thomas see Jesus (pbuh) before the alleged “crucifixion”?
Of course he did ! If Jesus meant, that you have believe that I am God, so why
is Jesus saying that you have seen me and believe? He had already seen him
before.
This explanation is sufficient to Prove that Jesus (pbuh)
did not claim divinity. It was only an exclamation by Thomas.
Response:
Mr. Ahmed wants to fall back on the everyday usage argument here, however the Greek text disproves such wishful thinking. Sam Shamoun already discussed this:
Furthermore, the Greek construction Apekrithe ... kai eipen auto ("answered and said to him") is a common idiom in the New Testament. This idiom always precedes a statement directed to the referent of the dative auto ("to him"). In other words, the statement "answered and said" refers to the referent signified by the indirect object ("to him") which in this context would be Jesus Christ. There is no lexical support in any of the standard Greek references (BAGD, M&M, and Louw & Nida) where this idiom is to be taken as a relative address, as not addressing the object that the pronoun auto points to, but to someone else. There is no grammatical support in any of the standard grammars for claiming that such a construction is to be understood as referring to someone other than the addressee of the indirect object.
As one writer and apologist put it:
…There are 108 occurrences of a form of EIPON followed by AUTW(i) in the NT. 74 are EIPEN AUTW(i). 23 occur with a form of APOKRINOMAI. Ten of these are preceded by APEKRITHE. John uses EIPEN AUTW(i) 17 times. I checked all 108 occurrences. In every case, the words following AUTW(i) were addressed to the referent of AUTW(i). In addition, there are 127 examples of AUTW(i) preceded by a form of LEGW (20 combined with a form of APOKRINOMAI), and in every case I checked (about half), I did not find a single example where the person addressed was OTHER THAN the referent of AUTW(i). (Robert Hommel, Robert and MS on John 20:28; online source)
To help illustrate Hommel’s point we provide references where the words eipen auto, or their varying forms, are used in John:
They came to John and said to him (eipan auto), ‘Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him." John 3:26
"When he inquired as to the time when his son got better, they said to him (eipon oun auto), ‘The fever left him yesterday at the seventh hour.’ Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him (eipan auto), ‘Your son will live.’ So he and all his household believed." John 4:52-53
"Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him (eipen auto), ‘See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.’" John 5:14
"Jesus’ brothers said to him (eipon
oun pros auton), ‘You ought to leave here and go to
"‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him (eipon oun hoi Ioudaioi pros auton), ‘and you have seen Abraham!’" John 8:57
"The third time he said to him, ‘Simon son of John, do you love me?’ Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him (eipen auto) the third time, ‘Do you love me?’ He said, ‘Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.’" John 21:17
"Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him (eipon legei auto), ‘Follow me!’" John 21:19
The above references show that eipen auto are addressed to the referent of the pronoun auto. This conclusively proves that Thomas’ confession was directed to Jesus, that John deliberately used the Greek words eipen auto in order to show that Thomas was directly addressing Jesus as his Lord and God. (http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Responses/Osama/zawadi_thomas.htm)
Commentary: The Greek NT explicitly proves that Thomas was addressing Jesus has his Lord and God. If it was just an exclamation of “Oh My God”, then the eipen auto would have never been found in this scripture.
For more info:
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Responses/Osama/zawadi_thomas2.htm
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Responses/Osama/zawadi_thomas3.htm
8. “I am Alpha and Omega”
The above quotation if from Revelation 1:8.
Assuming this statement is made by Jesus, book of Revelation is a
dream of John. Suppose if a person sees in a dream that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) claims divinity. Does it mean he really claimed to be
divine? No ! Similarly, this is only a dream of John. Book of Revelation also
talks about things like:
1And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out
of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns,
and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw
resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of
a lion. (Revelation 13:1-2)
Do Christians believe in these things?
For more details on Revelation 1:8, read this
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/dkman.htm
Response:
Mr. Ahmed doesn’t know when to stop here! First off, he is trying to imply that we shouldn’t believe the book of Revelation because it was a dream, lest we remind him what his own prophet said about dreams:
Narrated ‘Aisha (the mother of the faithful believers):
The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle
WAS IN THE FORM OF GOOD DREAMS which came true like bright day light,
and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in
seclusion in the
Narrated Aisha:
The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of true dreams. The Angel came to him and said, "Read, in the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists), has created man a clot. Read! And your Lord is Most Generous"... (96.1,2,3). (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 479)
Muhammad’s first call to recite the Quran came through dreams and Ahmed believes that! So using Ahmed’s logic:
Should we believe that
Muhammad is a prophet because revelation came to him in a dream?
Muslim historian al-Tabari relates Muhammad's "call" to prophethood:
"... When the night came on which God ennobled him by making him his Messenger and thereby showed mercy to his servants, Gabriel brought him the command of God. The Messenger of God said, ‘Gabriel came to me AS I WAS SLEEPING with a brocade cloth in which was writing. He said, "recite!" I said, "I cannot recite." He pressed me tight and almost stifled me, until I THOUGHT THAT I SHOULD DIE. Then he let me go, and said, "Recite!" I said, "What shall I recite?" only saying that in order to free myself from him, fearing that he MIGHT REPEAT what he had done to me.
He said:
Recite in the name of your Lord who creates! He creates man from a clot of blood. Recite: And your Lord is the Most Bountiful, He who teaches by the pen, teaches man what he knew not.
I recited it, and then he desisted and departed. I
WOKE UP, and it was as though these words had been written on my heart.
There was no one of God's creation more hateful to me than a poet or a madman;
I could not bear to look at either of them. I said to myself, "Your humble
servant (meaning himself) is either a poet or a madman, but Quraysh
shall never say this of me. I shall take myself to a mountain crag, hurl
myself down from it, kill myself, and find relief in that way."’"
(The History of Al-Tabari, Volume VI, Muhammad at Mecca, tran. By W.
Montgomery Watt and M.V. McDonald [State
Hence, Muhammad received his "call" to prophethood in a dream. Muhammad also claimed that he "received" the command to marry 6-year-old Aisha in his dreams:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said (to me), "You have been shown to me twice IN (MY) DREAMS. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, ‘This is your wife.’ I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, ‘If this dream is from Allah, He will cause it to come true.’" (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 15)
In fact, it was the dreams of his companions that led Muhammad to conclude that the Night of Power occurred during the last seven nights of Ramadan:
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar:
Some men amongst the companions of the Prophet were shown in their dreams that the night of Qadr was in the last seven nights of Ramadan. Allah's Apostle said, "It seems that all your dreams agree that (the Night of Qadr) is in the last seven nights, and whoever wants to search for it (i.e. the Night of Qadr) should search in the last seven (nights of Ramadan)." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 32, Number 232)
Furthermore, the Islamic traditions claim that the dreams of prophets are divinely inspired and that dreams are the only remaining part of prophethood left:
Narrated Kuraib:
Ibn ‘Abbas said, "The Prophet slept till he snored and then prayed (or probably lay till his breath sounds were heard and then got up and prayed)." Ibn ‘Abbas added: "I stayed overnight in the house of my aunt, Maimuna, the Prophet slept for a part of the night, (See Fateh-al-Bari page 249, Vol. 1), and late in the night, he got up and performed ablution from a hanging water skin, a light (perfect) ablution and stood up for the prayer. I, too, performed a similar ablution, then I went and stood on his left. He drew me to his right and prayed as much as Allah wished, and again lay and slept till his breath sounds were heard. Later on the Mua'dhdhin (callmaker for the prayer) came to him and informed him that it was time for Prayer. The Prophet went with him for the prayer without performing a new ablution." (Sufyan said to ‘Amr that some people said, "The eyes of Allah's Apostle sleep but his heart does not sleep." ‘Amr replied, "I heard ‘Ubaid bin ‘Umar saying that the dreams of Prophets were Divine Inspiration, and then he recited the verse: ‘I (Abraham) see in a dream, (O my son) that I offer you in sacrifice (to Allah).’ (37.102) (See Hadith No. 183). (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 140)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The (good) dream of a faithful believer is a part of the forty-six parts of prophetism." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 117)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Nothing is left of the prophetism except Al-Mubashshirat." They asked, "What are Al-Mubashshirat?" He replied, "The true good dreams (that conveys glad tidings)." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 119)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "When the Day of Resurrection approaches, the dreams of a believer will hardly fail to come true, and a dream of a believer is one of forty-six parts of prophetism, and whatever belongs to prophetism can never be false." Muhammad bin Sirin said, "But I say this." He said, "It used to be said, ‘There are three types of dreams: The reflection of one's thoughts and experiences one has during wakefulness, what is suggested by Satan to frighten the dreamer, or glad tidings from Allah.’ So, if someone has a dream which he dislikes, he should not tell it to others, but get up and offer a prayer." He added, "He (Abu Huraira) hated to see a Ghul (i.e., iron collar around his neck in a dream) and people liked to see fetters (on their feet in a dream). The fetters on the feet symbolizes one's constant and firm adherence to religion." And Abu ‘Abdullah said, "Ghuls (iron collars) are used only for necks." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 144)
Now Ahmed asked why Christians should believe Revelation 13:2, which elegantly talks about the beast or antichrist, but apparently Mr. Ahmed is grossly ignorant that the Quran copies these very same stories:
And when the word is fulfilled concerning them, We shall bring forth a beast of the earth to speak unto them because mankind had not faith in Our revelations. S. 27:82 Pickthall
Not all translations render this passage in exactly the same way. For instance, some versions translate the word for beast as insect while other translations render the text in a way as to make the beast actually speak a few words and place those words within quotation marks. Still others translate the text so that the beast is sent to wound the unbelievers rather than to speak to them. Notice the following translations:
And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), we shall produce from the earth a beast to (face) them: He will speak to them, for that mankind did not believe with assurance in Our Signs. Y. Ali
When the Word falls on them, We shall bring forth for them out of the earth a beast that shall speak unto them: 'Mankind had no faith in Our signs.' A.J. Arberry
And when the Word (of torment) is fulfilled against them, We shall bring out from the earth a beast to them, which will speak to them because mankind believed not with certainty in Our Ayât (Verses of the Qur'ân and Prophet Muhammad SAW). Hilali-Khan
And when the word comes to pass against them, We shall bring forth for them a creature from the earth that will speak to them, because people did not believe in Our messages. M. Muhammad Ali
Whenever the Sentence prevails against them, We shall bring forth a monster from the Earth for them who will speak to them, because mankind has not been convinced by Our signs. T.B. Irving
When the word about them comes true We shall make a creature appear to them on earth who will tell them that people had no faith in Our revelations. Muhammad Sarwar
At the right time, we will produce for them a creature, made of earthly materials, declaring that the people are not certain about our revelations. Khalifa
When the doom shall be ready to light upon them, we will cause a monster to come forth to them out of the earth, and cry to them "Verily men have not firmly believed our signs." Rodwell
And when the sentence falls upon them we will bring forth a beast out of the earth that shall speak to them, (and say) that, 'Men of our signs would not be sure.' Palmer
When the sentence shall [be ready to] fall upon
them, we will cause a beast to come forth unto them from out of the
earth, which shall speak unto them: Verily men do not firmly believe in
our signs.
And when the word shall come to pass against them, We shall bring forth for them a creature from the earth that shall wound them, because people did not believe in Our communications. Shakir
And when the sentence is passed against them, WE shall bring forth for them an insect out of the earth which shall wound them because people did not believe in Our Signs. Sher Ali
When we turn to the commentary of Ibn Kathir, it is quite clear that many of the first Muslims believed that the beast will speak and that he is no mere insect:
The Emergence of the Beast of the Earth
This is the beast which will emerge at the end of time, when mankind has become corrupt and neglected the commands of Allah and changed the true religion. Then Allah will cause a beast to emerge from the earth. It was said that it will be brought from Makkah, or from somewhere else, as we shall discuss in detail below, if Allah wills. The beast will speak to people about matters. Ibn `Abbas, Al-Hasan and Qatadah said, and it was also narrated from `Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, that it will speak words, meaning, it will address them. Many Hadiths and reports have been narrated about the beast, and we will narrate as many of them as Allah enables us to, for He is the One Whose help we seek. Imam Ahmad recorded that Hudhayfah bin Asid Al-Ghifari said, "The Messenger of Allah came out from his room while we were discussing the matter of the Hour. He said...
<The Hour will not come until you see ten signs: the rising of the sun from the west; the smoke (Ad-Dukhan); emergence of the beast; the emergence of Ya'juj and Ma'juj; the appearance of `Isa bin Maryam, upon him be peace; the Dajjal; and three land cave-ins, one in the west, one in the east and one in the Arabian Peninsula; and a Fire which will emerge from the midst of Yemen, and will drive or gather the people, stopping with them whenever they stop for the night or to rest during the day.>"
This was also recorded by Muslim and the Sunan compilers from Hudhayfah, in a Mawquf report. At-Tirmidhi said, "It is Hasan Sahih." It was also recorded by Muslim from Hudhayfah in a Marfu` report. And Allah knows best. (Source; bold emphasis ours)
And please note Ibn Kathir's rather fantastic description of the beast:
Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi recorded from Abu Hurayrah, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Messenger of Allah said...
<A beast will emerge from the earth, and with it will be the staff of Musa and the ring of Sulayman, peace be upon them both. It will strike the nose of the disbelievers with the staff, and it will make the face of the believer bright with the ring, until when people gather to eat, they will be able to recognize the believers from the disbelievers.>
It also was recorded by Imam Ahmad, with the wording...
<It will strike the nose of the disbelievers with the ring, and will make the face of the believer bright with the staff, until when people gather for a meal, they will say to one another, O believer, or O disbeliever.>
It was also recorded by Ibn Majah. Ibn Jurayj
reported that Ibn Az-Zubayr described the beast and said, "Its head is
like the head of a bull, its eyes are like the eyes of a pig, its ears are like
the ears of an elephant, its horns are like the horns of a stag, its neck is
like the neck of an ostrich, its chest is like the chest of a lion, its color
is like the colour of a tiger, its haunches are like the haunches of a cat, its
tail is like the tail of a ram, and its legs are like the legs of a camel. Between
each pair of its joints is a distance of twelve cubits. It will bring out with
it the staff of Musa and the ring of Sulayman. There will be no believer left
without it making a white spot on his face, which will spread until all his
face is shining white as a result; and there will be no disbeliever left
without it making a black spot on his face, which will spread until all his
face is black as a result, then when the people trade with one another in the
marketplace, they will say, `How much is this, O believer' `How much is this, O
disbeliever' And when the members of one household sit down together to eat,
they will know who is a believer and who is a disbeliever. Then the beast will
say: `O so-and-so, enjoy yourself, for you are among the people of
<And when the Word is fulfilled against them, We shall bring out from the earth a beast for them, to speak to them because mankind believed not with certainty in Our Ayat.> (Source; bold emphasis ours)
Hadith Compiler Ibn Majah narrates the following details about this beast:
4066. Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "The beast would appear (near the Last Hour) along with the signet-ring of Sulaiman b. Dawud and Musa b. 'Imran's staff (peace be upon both of them). It would make a believer's face brilliant with the staff and brand the nose of a disbeliever with the signet-ring till inmates of a collection of houses adjacent to one another would assemble and this (man) would utter, 'O believer' and that (man) would say, 'O infidel'(1)."
Dabbat ul-And is an angel in the form of a beautiful beast that would appear in Safa mountain. According to some learned scholars, it will be a queer creature sixty arm long having the resemblance of every animal in it.
Abu l-Hasan al-Qattan mentioned like that with the chain of transmission consisting of Ibrahim b. Yahya, Musa b. Isma'il Hammad b. Salama and said one about it, "This (man) would say: O believer and this one (would say): O the Non-believer." (Sunan Ibn-I-Majah (Imam Abu Abdullah Muhammad b. Yazid Ibn-I-Maja Al-Qazwini), English version by Muhammad Tufail Ansari [Kazi Publications, Lahore (Pakistan), 1st edition 1995], Chapter NO. XXXI, "The Beast of the Land Women", Volume V, pp. 366-367)
Other reports imply that certain Muslims had actually met and talked with this beast:
... So I set out towards that mosque and observed
prayer along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and I was in the
row of the women which was near the row of men. When Allah's Messenger (may
peace be upon him) had finished his prayer, he sat on the pulpit smiling and
said: Every worshipper should keep sitting at his place. He then said: Do you
know why I had asked you to assemble? They said: Allah and His Messenger know
best. He said: By Allah, I have not made you assemble for exhortation or for a
warning, but I have detained you here, for Tamim Dari, a Christian, who came
and accepted Islam, told me something, which agrees with what I was telling,
you about the Dajjal. He narrated to me that he had sailed in a ship along with
thirty men of Bani Lakhm and Bani Judham and had been tossed by waves in the
ocean for a month. Then these (waves) took them (near) the land within the
ocean (island) at the time of sunset. They sat in a small side-boat and entered
that
We said: Yes. Thereupon he said: I think these
would not bear fruits. He said: Inform me about the
Here we find two of the ten signs which Muhammad said would appear before the Last Hour, the beast and Dajjal. And, according to this narration, the beast is clearly a talking animal! (http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/talking_beast.htm)
Commentary: It is absolutely amazing that Muslim propagandists such as Yahya Ahmed are quick to throw out arguments against Christianity not knowing that their own religion is also guilty for some of the same. I’m sure he won’t believe his Quran or Islamic tradition either right? Hardly doubt he wouldn’t.