See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.
The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.
Osama Abdallah spends most of his time copying and pasting from Shabbir Ally, whose apologetics have been debunked long time ago. He claims that the Bible predicts that it will be corrupted and just like Shabbir, he appeals to Jerimiah 8:8 to confirm his assertions:
Shabir claims that Jeremiah was affirming that the scribes corrupted the Torah. Shabir puts words into the mouth of the prophet Jeremiah since he never states that the Torah was corrupt. This is what he actually did say:
The accusation is that the scribes have falsified the Torah by their lying pens. Shabir presupposes that the manner in which the Law was falsified is by corrupting the text. Shabir assumes that this is the only possible meaning since he is convinced, as a Muslim, that the Holy Bible is no longer in its true pristine form.
But is this what Jeremiah meant? Did his hearers understand him to mean that the text of the Torah had been corrupted? Did the prophets after him agree that the Torah had been corrupted? In order to answer these questions we must look to Jeremiah and to the Holy Bible as a whole to see what indeed did Jeremiah mean.
How could Israel follow the Law, i.e. the Torah, if it had been corrupted? This presupposes that the Torah was uncorrupt and available during the time of Jeremiah. Furthermore, since Jeremiah wrote Jeremiah 8:8 he would know best the meaning of the passage in question. Clearly, we see Jeremiah appealing to the availability of the Law in Jeremiah 26:4-6 implying that he did not believe that the scribes had corrupted the text.
The prophet Daniel writes:
Daniel is reading Jeremiah 25:11, 12 and 29:10 where God predicts that Israel would be taken into captivity to Babylon for 70 years. After reading this, Daniel continues to pray and says:
In order for Daniel to appeal to what was written in the Law of Moses presupposes that an uncorrupt Torah was available during the time of Daniel. Furthermore, after having read Jeremiah Daniel never concludes that the Torah had been corrupted, put appeals to it as the inspired word of God. This would be a strange conclusion for Daniel to come to if Jeremiah 8:8 indeed meant that the text of the Torah had been corrupted during Jeremiah's time.
This occurred approximately 430 B.C. nearly 180 years after Jeremiah's temple address which took place in 609 or 608 B.C. (see Jeremiah 26:1). Again, in order for Ezra the scribe to be able to both read from the Law of Moses and expound it presupposes that a true, uncorrupt copy of the Torah was available at that time.
Finally, the Lord Jesus and his followers quoted from the Torah as we know it today and never assumed that it was corrupt. (cf. Matthew 4:4,7,10; 22:31-32; 1 Timothy 5:18) In fact, Jesus claimed that the Torah as it exists would not pass away until all was fulfilled:
If Jeremiah 8:8 does not mean that the text of the Torah had been corrupted what did Jeremiah mean by the statement that the lying pens of the scribes have falsified it? Presumably, Jeremiah could have been referring to the written commentary of the scribes whereby they falsely interpreted the Law of God, leading people astray by their traditions. A similar situation arose between Jesus and the scribes and Pharisees:
Jeremiah could have been rebuking the scribes for traditions that was leading the people astray and to rejecting the word of God. This can be seen from the passage that immediately follows:
(From Shabir-Ally/anomalies, by Sam Shamoun)
It is very hard to fathom how Jerimiah can claim that the bible was corrupted in light of what he said in Jeremiah 8:9. Notice that Osama doesn't post any other verses around for immediate context. Most of his apologetics are outdated and is reliant on previous Islamic authors who are more bright than him.
A3: Before I answer this question from the Islamic perspective, we must first know that the Bible itself admits that it is a corrupted Book from the introduction above.
Actually Osama hasn't proven that the Bible is corrupted he has just proven that he copies and pasts from Shabbir Ally. Also the God of Islam isn't the God of the Bible since Jews didn't address God as "Allah" but as Yahweh. We have just proven that Osama doesn't even read the Bible or he wouldn't this foolish in posting this embarrasing imformation above.
Osama makes this accusation without showing you which verse he is talking about. Show us where God said that he will promise hell fire to people if they changed his words. Here is what the word of the Quran says about God's word being change:
And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. S. 18:27
It is amazing that Osama didn't elaborate on these verses in the Quran, maybe he forgot about them or he intentionally ignores their implication which says that "NO ONE can change the words of God". If Osama claims otherwise, he obviously is admitting that God is a liar. This is fine with us since we already know that Allah is a pagan devil from Sumer.
It is easy to see Osama's idiotic fallacy since all of these so-called different Bibles are ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS!!! Muslims like Osama seem to ignore history and the simple fact that God never revealed the Bible in English and that in order to judge Christianity you must judge the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek language and not the English text. How would Osama like if I used this same methodology against the Quran? Would he also agree?
First of all in order to say that the bible is corrupt, we must compare them from every language on earth since all Christians don't speak English! Osama thinks that if there are discrepancies found in the ENGLISH bible then it affects Christianity as a whole! What about Arab speaking Christians who don't know English should we put them in this argument dealing with the Bible versions too? What about Spanish speaking Christians, are they supposed to be judged along with their faith using the ENGLISH bible? This is the type of argument Muslims use today and it is very easily answered once one sits down and evaluate what they are actually saying. Therefore in order for the Quran to be right and Christianity to be wrong, based on common Islamic arguments, the English bible must be used as the judgement for all Christians when all Christians don't even speak English! How hilarious to say the least.
Israel, when it lost Allah Almighty's grace, began to sin against truth and religion in three ways: (1) they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never meant; (2) in doing so, they conveniently forgot a part of the Message and purpose of Allah; and (3) they invented new deceits to support the old ones.
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."
Osama is obviously a neophyte in these matters or he wouldv'e known that:
"'They corrupt the word' means 'they alter or change its meaning.' Yet no one is able to change even a single word from any Book of God. The meaning is that they interpret the word wrongly." [... and he continues to speak about how the Qur'an is preserved ...]
This is the Tafseer (commentary) of Abdullah Ibn Abbas, one of the Sahaba (Companions) and Muhammad's cousin. His opinions (because he is a Sahabi) are held to be above the opinions and commentaries of all other Sheikhs who are not Sahaba.
Lets investigate Osama's use of Surah 5:13 to see what it is actually talking about. He claims that it proves that the Bible was corrupted but by reading the Quranic passage it is the exact opposite:
13. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them - barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.
14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so We stirred up enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. 15. O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,- S. 5:12-15
When reading this passage in context it shows that the Jews were cursed because they forgot God's covenant with them. This caused them to change the words by their tongues as well as forget the message which was already with them. This is verfied later in this passage when we see the Jews twisting the Quran:
Muhammad used to recite the Quran and the Jews would change his words into something derogatory. Using Osama's assertions we must also conclude that the Jews altered the Quran also. Another great piece of evidence against the Bible being changed other than altering the words which were already present in seen in these verses:
Do you see Allah telling us that the people of the book disbelieved because they changed the Torah or Gospel? No!
Clear proof from the Quran that if you follow the Jewish scriptures and the Christian Gospel, it is a revelation from God and it will lead you to heaven. Why would Allah claim that the Bible was corrupted and then later come back and say that if you believe in these same books you will go to heaven? Does Allah forget this quick? Is this why the Quran need abrogation to correct its embarrasing errors? Or is it Osama twisting passages while relying on Shabbir Ally? The latter 2 options seem to be more correct.
Please visit History of man's corruption in the Bible for more details. Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran on the other hand, did promise that He will personally guard the Noble Quran from corruption. He never promised hell fire to anyone who tries to tamper His words in the Noble Quran. He will guard it Himself; "We (Allah) have, without a doubt, sent down the Message (The Quran); and We (Allah) will assuredly Guard it [from corruption]. (The Noble Quran, 15:9)." Today we have only one Arabic Noble Quran.
Notice the hypocrasy used by Osama here, he says that there is one Arabic Quran but yet he tries to debunk Biblical inerrancy by using English translations!! Notice how Muslims will result to twisting their own scriptures along with twisting facts to promote their theories. However history has shown that the Quran hasn't been protected by Allah. Historical evidence disproves Osama's claims which are repeated over and over by Muslims: "it is quite clear that the text which 'Uthman canonized was only one out of many rival text... [and] there is grave suspicion that 'Uthman may have seriously edited the text he canonized." ((From "The Problem of Variants" in LE SAINT CORAN, Traduction et commentaire de Muhammad Hamidullah, avec la collaboration de M. Léturmy, nouvelle édition 1989 corrigée et augmentée, ix-x)
The well-known scholar W. Montgomery Watt, commenting on the variant readings between the codices of Abdullah Ibn Masud and Ubay Ibn Kab, writes:
British Scholar Sir Norman Anderson states:
1. Quran Is Incomplete
According this source, portions of the Quran that had been memorized by those slain in the battle vanished, never to be found again.
'Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites.' Ubai says, 'I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever.' But Allah said: None of Our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar (2.106)" (Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 527)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is 'Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Apostle while Allah: "Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106) (Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 8)
These missing verses cannot be referring to abrogated parts of the Quran which were no longer essential since even the abrogated parts still form part of the text today.
This is why Ibn Umar would say:
2. Suras Added or Deleted
The Islamic traditions agree that certain Muslim reciters included extra suras not found in the present text of the Quran. For instance, Ubay Ibn Kabb was considered one of the best Muslim reciters, being dubbed "the Master of the Quranic Reciters." Yet, interestingly Kabb included two extra suras, which he claimed were part of the revelation:
Here are the two suras in their entirety:
Surat al-Hafd
Surat al-Khal'
Interestingly, Ubay was not the only one who included these suras into his codex. According to al-Suyuti, both Ibn Abbass and Abu Musa also included them as part of their text. (Al-Itqan, p. 154)
QUESTION FOR OSAMA & OTHER MUSLIMS
Why are these suras not part of the Quran today seeing that Muslim reciters such as Ubay claimed that God revealed them as part of the text? They lived with Muhammad they were his closest companions and yet these surahs aren't there. So much for this idea of the Quran being the same since it was first revealed.
The above question has [THREE] parts, so let us see the answers
accordingly. To answer the part ["Muslims believe that the current Bible is
not all the true word of GOD, and only the Quran is"] Yes, Muslims believes
that current bible [OT &NT] is not the one[s], which God [Allaah] almighty
gave to Moses and Jesus [peace be upon them]. But it is also verified and confirmed by
Noble Qur'aan, which is the main source of Muslims' belief. If you read OT,
NT, and Noble Qur'aan, it will become obvious that all missing links in the
bible are found in Noble Qur'aan and it makes undeniable sense. That is why
once one explore the Noble Qur'aan with its entirety in almost all cases it
is inevitable for him/her to not say the Shahada.
To respond to the second part of question ["If so, then why did the GOD of
Islam allow for His Words to get corrupted in the Bible?"] "If so" is
hardly the case here, beside that one cannot blame the God [Allaah] The
Creator, all Knower, and all Seer of all heavens and earth for allowing His
words to be corrupted. Such blame ONLY represents a typical frivolous
product liability lawsuit mentality. That will not work in this UNIQUE
case, because the God [Allaah], has already replaced the abused and
tempered [by human] product with far SUPERIOR [product] the Final
Revelation *****THE NOBLE QUR'AAN***** Which by the way is another
testament of God's existence that He not only can save His word, but again
He can give mankind a chance to correct himself and follow his true word
[The Noble Qur'aan] to be saved. Because God [Allah] is the Most Beneficent
and Most Merciful.
To answer the last part of question ["or why did He allow for the original
copy of the Bible to be lost?"]. Again in this part we see the frivolous
product liability lawsuit mentality. Having said that God [Allaah] did not
allow [original] copy to be lost. It was the keepers of bible[OT & NT] who
tempered it and hide many facts that resulted in current bible not making
any sense. Which by the way is also confirmed by God [Allaah] in Noble
Qur'aan and I quote:
005.015
YUSUFALI: O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger,
revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over
much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new)
light and a perspicuous Book, -
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you,
expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture,
and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain
Scripture,
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you
making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over
much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;
Followed by God [Allaah] emphasizing in Noble Qur'aan [next verse]:
005.016
YUSUFALI: Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of
peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the
light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.
PICKTHAL: Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto
paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree,
and guideth them unto a straight path.
SHAKIR: With it Allah guides him who will follow His pleasure into the ways
of safety and brings them out of utter darkness into light by His will and
guides them to the right path.
Bottom line is that as question itself indicates by use of [words]
"original copy" which is highly inappropriate in this case. However,
implication by virtue of question is absurd. Because FORENSIC AND EMPIRICAL
RESULTS proves that MASTER COPY [or SOURCE CODE] was never lost nor
tempered. It was and it has always been in possession of God [Allaah] the
Creator of all heaven and earth. It further proves the existence of ONE and
ONLY God [Allaah] the all Knower and all Seer who way ahead foretold to
Jews and Christians in OT and NT about the arrival of Prophet Muhammed
[saw] and commanded Jews and Christians to follow Prophet Muhammed [saw].
Noble Qur'aan 3:64! Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews
and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we
worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and
that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh[]. Then, if they
turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."
Noble Qur'aan 3:85! And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will
never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the
losers[].
Example: If Johnny writes a letter to Marry Joe and saves it. That Marry
Joe later edits and/or modify claiming to be original letter by Johnny.
That can be proven wrong by Johnny because he got the master copy. So to
make Marry Joe looks like a fool and a liar all Johnny has to do is to give
another copy of Jean Doe to show the people that she [Marry Joe] is lying.
It pretty bad, for Marry Joe, isn't it?
This doesn't interest us at all since it is an unprovable opinion. Because the Quran says that it is the word of God doesn't mean it actually is. In accordance to previous revelations there must be at least 2 witnesses to prove if a word is true. Even the Quran requires this. Since the Quran only came through Muhammad and no one else, how exactly does Osama or Ms. Waheed know that it is god talking and not Muhammad? Because he said so? Hilarious!! We have seen that neither Osama or his associates know the Bible nor the Quran and we must wonder why must you impress opinions to coincide as facts without actually proving these opinions? Maybe Osama or Ms. Waheed can address this article or can they? God Bless All.
Osama's link discussed was http://www.answering-christianity.com/que3.htm
Quennel Gale at queball20@yahoo.com