What does the Bible say about Jesus?   (Answering Trinity) Rebuttal

Greetings to all, this paper takes a deeper look at Osama’s Rebuttal page located at http://www.answering-christianity.com/trinity.htm His comments are in green.  He claims that I didn’t post a legitamate rebuttal but when we look at the evidence we will see that Mr. Osama is very unoriginal and really doesn’t have an answer for my page answering his trinity page.

Note: Please see my comments on answering-islam's rebuttal to this page after the "Conclusion" section on this page below.  You will also see a link for my rebuttal to their claims.  Just for the sake of record, they only picked and chose from my page and responded to just 30% of my whole argument.  They failed to answer my "Hebrew" and "Greek" references that I presented on this page.  Instead, they twisted the meanings of some key words in Hebrew and Greek to try to fool the reader.  Please visit brother Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi's rebuttal  to see how he showed in great details from the Christian "Bible Study Tools" web site (which presents the Bible in Greek and Hebrew) that their arguments are wrong and misleading.

This isn’t the truth, I responded to most of Osama’s claims, usually he modifies his site so much because most of his material is usually rebuttaled on idjnet.  During that time that I wrote a rebuttal, the page of his site I download wasn’t the very current one. He is good at claiming that I twisted words and that I didn’t answer his Greek and Hebrew references. If he is so sure of himself, one must ask this question. “Why didn’t you post my link to your page to show the reader what you are talking about?”  Anybody can make claims but without proving them, what good is your rebuttal? Especially to a page that nobody seems to know the link to!!!! Also read my rebuttal to Mr. Mohd Elfie at http://www.geocities.com/queball23/Answeringfriend.html to see just how weak and fallible Mr. Mohd’s arument is. Now lets start on Osama’s rebuttal. Some of his material he just reposted again. Much was answered already on my link at http://www.geocities.com/queball23/Quennel.html

Most Christians today claim that God Almighty came down to earth in a form of a human being and died for our sins to forgive all of us.  This is a belief that I struggled with for 3 years of my life.  I was between Christianity and Islam not knowing which religion is the right one.  I knew that both can not be true.  One of them had to be false.

This is a lie because if you read Osama’s comments you see that he was always a Muslim and that he had no intentions of ever becoming a Christian:

As'salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh (God's peace, mercy and blessings be upon you) and upon your families as well

Due to a number of misunderstandings that happened by some of the Christian readers, I would like to identify the purpose of why I created this web site. When I came to the U.S. in 1988, I didn't know anything about Christianity.  I was born and raised as a Muslim in the Middle East.  When I became involved in the internet and surfed it quite a lot, I came across so many ANTI-ISLAMIC web sites that were posted by Christians who were mostly Arab Christians. There are only 1.5 million Muslims in the Entire United States of America, and I found it to be very disturbing that the internet has so much ANTI-ISLAMIC sites against us.  I felt that everyone was ganging up on us.

Now if Osama struggled with Christianity for 3 years then why does he say on his purpose that 1.) He doesn’t know anything about Christianity 2.) I was born and raised a Muslim, 3.) I was raised a Muslim and 4.) I felt that everyone was gainging up on us.  If he struggled between these two religions did he do it here or in the Middle East? Apparently since he didn’t know anything about it until he came to the U.S. he must to have struggled between it here.  But he didn’t mention anything about this matter, he said that he felt that everybody was ganging upon “US” the Muslims, so apparently he didn’t have anytime to really struggle between Christianity and Islam as he so eloquently claims. This is seen further in his comments like this:

Now, I hope you would understand my position and intentions very well here.  After I became very disturbed by the overwhelming majority of Christians putting down my religion in the U.S., I decided to take it upon myself and to defend my religion with the best of my ability.  I think any loyal, good, and faithful person to his religion and people would do what I did.  I didn't come to the U.S. to battle Christians nor I ever thought about the religion of Christianity when I was back home.  I found myself thrown into this battle of religions here and I had no choice.  The last thing I wanted to happen is to see our young Muslim brothers and sisters who are born here in the U.S. get too effected by the religion of Christianity that its followers who try to force it upon them through the internet and the media and have them convert without knowing the real truth about both religions:  Islam and Christianity.

Oh!! Very interesting, he became disturbed by Christianity and then he took it upon himself to defend his religion not to think between which one to convert to.  Ladies and Gentlemen now you know why you can’t trust people like him.

Exaggerating expressions in the Bible:  The Bible contains many verses in it that contain irrational statements that make absolutely no sense!.  For instance we read in Matthew 21:21 " Jesus replied, 'I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.  If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.'"  I challenge any "faithful" believing Christian to move one brick, not a mountain with his sight or words.  Have any Christian from the time of Jesus till now been able to do it?

That isn’t the point, the bible doesn’t tell us to move things with sight or words, it is talking about faith!!! Mr. Osama uses the word “faithful” in his sentence but yet he seems to forget the meaning of it when he says “with his sight or words”.  Faith has never meant using sight or words.  The Bible says that “we walk by faith and not by sight”.

Does this mean no "Christian" is a real Christian?  Did Jesus say that no one will ever be a believer?

Osama starts off with this confusion and then builds a strawman argument from it. Jesus never mentioned anything about “no one will ever be a  believer”.  Just read Matthew 21:21 to find out for yourself.

Does the Bible contain "non sense" expressions in it? and if so, then how can you take the "Trinitarian" verses so literal then?

Trinitarians today base their entire belief basically on the following Biblical verses:  Isaiah 9:6,  John 1:1, John 5:58, Revelations 1:8, Daniel 7:13, and Daniel 7:28. These verses sound like they are talking about God, but in reality, they are not.  Here is my answer to them:

Isaiah 9:6.  "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder.  And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

As this verse (Isaiah 9:6) is broken down and analyzed thoroughly throughout this page, you will see that for instance:  David was called the "O mighty one" in Psalm 45:3, and "God" in Psalm 45:7.  Of course this doesn't mean that David was GOD or Jehovah or The Mighty One.  Also Moses in Exodus 7:1 was called "like God" too.

No the bible doesn’t contain nonsense in it.  Osama is telling us that he doesn’t know how to differentiate between literal and parable verses!!! That is unbelievable.  They teach you this in grade school.  Osama better go back and relearn what he forgot so he won’t make himself look so silly with these answers of his.  As for his effort to debunk the trinity, lets look at it closely.

For one thing trinitarians don't base their whole belief on these group of scriptures. In Psalms 45:3 the term used for David isn't ELOHIM in Hebrew so this term of "MIGHTY ONE" can't be used as a defense because if the reader researches this they will find out that Might God is present in Isaiah 9:6 while it's not in Psalms 45:3. This scripture doesn't show that David was God nor does it disprove the idea of Isaiah 9:6 because "God"- Elohim is present in Isaiah 9:6 while just the word in Hebrew for Mighty one is located in Psalms 45:3. Elohim is spelled with an "Aleph" as the first letter while mighty one in Psalms 45:3 is spelled with a "gemel". If Osama doesn’t believe me he can take the link that Mr. Mohd used and go and check it out for himself. He claims that nobody answered his Hebrew references but yet from reading this we see that he thinks that Elohim is the same a gibbor, the word used in Psalms 45:3! Great Hebrew knowledge Osama.

Now in this passage Jesus was called "MIGHTY GOD". The Bible only uses this term to describe GOD, just look at Isaiah 10:21-"The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God." This scripture clearly says that Israel shall return to God. In Jeremiah 32:18-"Thou shewest loving kindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name." The same term used for Jesus was used for God- "THE MIGHTY GOD". When you continue down in the passage to 32:20-21-

20 Which hast set signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, even unto this day, and  in Israel, and among other men; and hast made thee a name, as at this day;                                                                                                                      21 And hast brought forth thy people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs, and with wonders, and with a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with great terror;

You see that "The MIGHTY GOD" brought the Jews out of the land of Egypt as well as performed the signs and wonders. The evidence presented against Jesus not being God doesn't stand up under close scrutiny because the bible says that "Mighty God", along with the Lord of hosts is the name of God. As for Exodus 7:1 the term applied to Moses and the Israelites judges is elohim, which is correctly translated as "gods" having the plural ending "im" in Hebrew.

The word "God" was used numerous times throughout the Bible to show someone's special authority throughout the Old Testament. But the GOD of the Bible is One GOD; see verses Genesis 18:14, Exodus 5:2, 6:3, 15:3, 20:7, 34:6, Leviticus 19:2, Deuteronomy 4:24, 6:5, 10:17, Isaiah 2:6, 16:7, 17:47, Nehemiah 4:14, Psalm 3:8, and Jeremiah 10:10  Where they all talk about Jehovah being the living One God and King.

I don’t disagree, God is one God but however the term “ONE” has never meant just a single numerical one. Out of all of the words for "one", the only word that would prove beyond a doubt that God is just an absolute "one" would be yachid. If this word is applied to God (Elohim) in the O.T., then this would be a death sentence for the Trinitarian believers. The word "yachid" means an absolute or solitary one. (Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, and Charles Briggs, "A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament"; Oxford, Clarendon, 1966 pg. 402). This word is never applied to God because "Elohim conveys both the unity of the one God, and yet allows for the plurality of Divine Persons as expressed in the historical Christian doctrine of the Trinity. It is unique to monotheistic Israel and is not found in the language of any of her polytheistic, Semitic neighbors (Jack B. Scott, S.V. "elohim", in Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 2 vols:, Chicago, Moody Press, 1980, 1:44).

In Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema, Echad "STRESSES UNITY, WHILE RECOGNIZING DIVERSITY WITHIN THAT ONENESS" (Herbert Wolf, S.V. "echad", Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 1:30). When we turn to the Old Testament, what do we find? The writers of the Old Testament never applied yachid to God. God is never described as a solitary person. If this is the case why do Unitarians, especially Muslims try to tell Christians that it's an error believing on the Trinity when the Hebrew Text, that they use in their defense so much, shows God in the compound and not the single entity?

Now, in Isaiah 9:6 "For there has been a child born to us..............",

let us look at Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign:  Look ! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son (Jesus the same person in Isaiah 9:6), and she will certainly call his name Immanuel."  Here in Isaiah 7:14 we see Allah Almighty or Jehovah is speaking clearly to the people of Israel predicting to them the coming of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him.  It doesn't say that "Jehovah" will come down and will be born from that woman.

What Mr. Osama seems to forget is that Jesus was called MIGHTY GOD!!! No other person other than God or Jesus in the O.T. was called "THE MIGHTY GOD" If Osama can find one please let us know.

Also, let us look at Luke 1:34 - 1:35 "But Mary said to the angel: How is this to be, since I am having no intercourse with a man?  In answer the angel said to her:  Holy Spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you.  For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God's Son." Again, here in this verse we don't see Allah Almighty or Jehovah saying that he will be born from Mary the Virgin.  The angel told her that she will have a miracle by becoming pregnant without intercourse, and she will bring a holy person to life.  

First of all if we look at Isaiah 9:6 we see that Jesus is called MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHTER, ETC. In Proverbs 30:4-

Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

 We see that God has a son. Here in Luke 1:34-35, it says that Jesus was to be called THE SON OF GOD.  Here are some relevant scriptures dealing with Son of God. 

Matthew 14:33-Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 26:63-

68 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."                                                                                                                              64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."                                                                        65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.                                                                                                         66What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered.                                                                       67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him                                                     68and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

These are just a very few scriptures.  If Jesus was just a holy person and not God’s unique Son then why did the priest become so angry and then spit on him just because he claimed to be the Son of God? Wasn’t it because he claimed deity?  Yes. 

Also, let us look at Mathew 1:18-21 "But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way.  During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, and was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united.  How ever, Joseph her husband, because he was righteous and did not want to maker her a public spectacle, intended to divorce her secretly.  But after he had thought these things over, look ! Jehovah's angel appeared to him in a dream, saying:  Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife home, for that which has been begotten in her is by holy spirit.  She will give birth to a son, and you must call his name Jesus for he will save his people from their sins".  This verse clearly doesn't state that Jehovah was going to be born from Mary the Virgin.  It states that someone other than Jehovah who's name will be "Jesus" will be born from her.

Also, let us look at John 1:14 "So the word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth."  Again, this verse clearly states that Jehovah or Allah didn't come in a form of a man.  It was God's son who came to us.  God's only begotten son.  Further down in my paper you will see the real definition of the word "Son" and what it really means.  The word "Son" doesn't mean actual biological son at all.  You will see it further down.

Let us look at Luke 2:11 "Because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ (the) Lord, in David's city."   The word "Lord" in here doesn't mean GOD or Allah Almighty at all.  It simply means the master or the leader or the teacher or the most respected or the most admired among his people.  But it certainly doesn't refer to the Creator of this Universe.  That is not what the word Lord means.  We use the word "Lord" a lot for "Drug Lords" or "Market Lords", etc....  They are not GODs.  These Lords are simply powerful people who have a lot of influence on us.

Defining the meaning of the word "Son":

Now in Isaiah 9:6 "....there has been a son given to us,.........",

Now let us look at John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."  Ironically, Trinitarians from my personal experience with them rely on this verse (John 3:16) very heavily when trying to prove that Allah or Jehovah came down to earth to die for our sins.  They claim that Jesus being God's unique son, makes him the only Son for God, which ultimately lead us to the conclusion that Jehovah is Jesus.

Also, let us look at Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice.  He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son...."  Abraham had two sons:  Ishmael and Isaac.  Ishmael was 13 years older than Isaac.  Yet we see that "his one and only son" expression was used for Isaac.  The Bible uses expressions like this to magnify people or to glorify someone on a certain occasion.  The Bible in this verse glorifies Isaac for being the chosen sacrifice to God.  So Jesus being God's "only begotten Son" in John 3:16 doesn't make him God nor the only Son of God.

Now lets talk about Osama’s misunderstanding of  “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON”.  The word for “ONLY” in the Greek language is “MONOGENES” which is defined, as the only one of it’s kind.  The reason why Christian apologists can claim this is because we know the meaning of this word “only”.  For more information we turn to Strong’s Concordance of the Bible for the word:                                                 Monogenes

                                                               Definition:

1.single of its kind, only a. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)                                   b.used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Mr. Osama attempts to use Hebrews 11:17 by claiming that Abraham has 2 sons and that “only” is used to magnify or to glorify someone on a certain occasion.  This tries to discredit the meaning of “Monogenes”, only in Greek.  But if we read Hebrews 11:17-18- “By faith Abraham when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only (monogenes) begotten son of whom it was said, IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED.”

This is why we see that Isaac was called Abraham’s only begotten son because it was through Isaac “ONLY” and ALONE and not Ishmael in which Abraham’s seed would be established.  There are many in the Bible that was called SONS, but there is only one person that is called GOD’S ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. This person was Jesus.  This is something Mr. Osama can’t discredit because all one has to do is to go to any online Greek Concordance and check out the word “MONOGENES”. Let Mr. Mohd help you, since he is such an expert using Strong’s concordance. Notice my reader, Osama couldn’t even provide a legitimate answer on his rebuttal. He couldn’t even find a single scripture in the Bible where anybody is called God’s only (monogenes) son. So much for his Greek reference.

Now, Let us look at Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."  Here we see in this verse that Israel is not only God's so called "Son", but also his first born !!.  Does this mean that Jehovah is Israel?  Does it mean that we must worship Israel as Jehovah or Allah?  Of course not !!!

Also, let us look at Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."  Ephraim in this verse means Israel.  This verse is similar to Exodus 4:22.

Let us also look at Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."  Here in this verse we see that God not only called David his "Son", but also had made him his begotten Son  !!!.

Mr. Osama tries hard to equate “firstborn” to “only” in Greek.  To anyone who looks at these scriptures you can easily see that both Ephraim and David wasn’t called GOD’S ONLY BEGOTTEN SON!  Only is Monogenes while first born is Prototokos, so Osama if you say you have something only do you use Firstborn to indicate that also? 

Swapping Game:  Let us play a little swapping game between the verses of John 3:16, Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9, and Psalm 2:7.  Let us take "his only begotten Son" from John 3:16 and replace it in Exodus 4:22, and let us take "even my firstborn" from Exodus 4:22 and replace it in John 3:16.  

Do you honestly think that the little swap game above would change anything in the meaning?  Would you still have believed in Jesus as Jehovah if the above swap was true?  

The above swap proves that the word "Son" doesn't mean actual biological "Son" at all.   It just means that Jesus is a "Son" of Jehovah in a way that Jehovah loved him so much that he chose him to be his messenger to the people of Israel.

For one thing in order to do the swapping game we must take two phrases from 2 totally different languages and replace them with each other!!!!  You can’t do this since Exodus was written in ancient Hebrew while John 3:16 was written in 1st century Greek!  Tell me Osama, how can you substitute a Greek Phrase into a Hebrew one?  Hebrew is written from right to left while Greek is written from left to right! This is impossible!  So why does Osama ask us to swap?  Easy, simply because he relies on an English translation of the Bible.  There are many excellent Hebrew and Greek language texts and concordances that can be used to check the English translations of the Bible, not to mention the online Biblical resources.  Is this your great Greek and Hebrew reference Osama?  Ladies and Gentleman this was on my original site. Osama just copied and paste for a rebuttal. He didn’t even link my site to his because he is afraid the reader will see his argument and discard it.

 If David wanted to put ONLY” into Psalms 2:7, etc then yachid that is “only” in Hebrew would’ve been used. So tell us Osama how does swapping two different terms from two totally different languages disprove son? Especially since this swapping game doesn’t exist.  I think you need to start getting serious and stop playing games because these types of arguments look foolish at best.

Another Swapping Game:  Let us replace "I begotten thee" from Psalm 2:7, and replace it in John 3:16, and take "his only begotten Son" from John 3:16 and replace it in Psalm 2:7

Again, do you honestly think that the little swap game above would change anything in the meaning?  Would you still have believed in Jesus as Jehovah if the above swap was true?  

Clearly, the above swap proves that the word "Son" doesn't mean actual biological "Son" at all.   It just means that Jesus is a "Son" of Jehovah in a way that Jehovah loved him so much that he chose him to be his messenger to the people of Israel.

Notice Osama clearly says “Would you still have believed in Jesus as Jehovah IF THE ABOVE SWAP WAS TRUE”!!!  Notice the world “IF” present here.  Then he goes on to say that the swap disproves Jesus deity, but yet he says IF THE SWAP WAS TRUE!!  There is no bible with these words with it on earth, so apparently SINCE this swap isn’t true then Osama contradicts himself by using it when it even isn’t true!!! Unbelievable.  I wonder would Mr. Mohd agree with him, if he does, I challenge him to go and find a bible with these scriptures worded like Osama wants them.  Dear reader Osama has to twist the meaning to prove his point. Such a weak defense.

Jesus worshiping his God:

Let us look at Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."  Here we see that Jesus had a God, a supreme God, who is higher than him and stronger than him.  Jesus was God's servant and he prayed to God so God would strengthen him more and reinforce him with patience and desire to continue his mission in spreading the word of God Almighty.

If we go to the Greek Text, we find out that the word for God, which is “Theos”, isn’t present at all! From Greek: Autos de en Hupochoreo en ho Eremos kai Proseuchomai. Why does Mr. Osama have to add words to the scripture in order to prove his point?  I challenge anyone to go and check out every bible out there and find “praying to his God” in it.  You won’t find it because it doesn’t exist. Even in the NIV Bible which Osama claims to debate from, the word for God isn’t present. Ladies and gentlemen Osama swears up and down that he would debate from the NIV but this verse mentioned this way isn’t even found in the NIV. He is a great liar. 

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he (Jesus) fell upon his face, praying and saying 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me.  Yet, not as I will, but as you will.' "  Here in this verse we see two things:   (1) Jesus bowed down on his face and prayed in submission to his GOD in obedience.   (2) Jesus was begging his GOD to let the cup pass away from him.  Jesus did not have the power to will it for himself and make the cup pass away from Jesus.  GOD had to do it for Jesus !.  How can Jesus be the Creater of this Universe, the all knowing, most powerful??!!

We see no such meaning at all, Jesus was in the garden and was about to be crucified, read:

37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.              38 Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."                                                                                                                                                                        39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Jesus was overwhelmed because he was about to face the cross not because he was praying out of obedience, something which Osama doesn’t show, by not posting any content.  Osama even says that Jesus was begging to take the cup away from him, since he believes this then he must believe that Jesus was crucified!!! He then builds a strawman argument by claiming that how could Jesus be all knowing and most powerful, simple, since he predicted his death and then it was about to happen this shows that he was all-knowing and all powerful.

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:42 "Again, for the second time, he (Jesus) went off and prayed, saying: 'My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, let your will take place.'"  My comments on this verse are similar to the above one (Matthew 26:39), Jesus begged his GOD to will what Jesus wanted to happen.  Jesus couldn't will it by himself.

No wonder why Osama thought that Jesus couldn’t will it by himself, he didn’t post any content to it. Read:

41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."                     42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

Notice Jesus spirit was willing but his body was weak.  Once again I must reiterate, Osama must believe in the crucifixion of Christ if he is posting these verses.

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:44 "So leaving them, he (Jesus) went off and prayed for the third time, saying once more the same word."  Here we see that Jesus for the third time begged his GOD to will what Jesus wished for in Matthew 26:39 above.  How can Jesus be the Creater of this Universe if he (1) begs, and (2) lacks power??!!

Jesus is praying not begging, and no he doesn’t lack power as Osama claims, infact since Osama believes this he obviously must believe that Jesus was to be crucified, read Matthew 26:45-56-

45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.                                                                                                                         46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"                                                                                                                       47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people.                                                                                                         48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him."                                         49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.                                                                  50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.        51 With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.                                                                                                                                                    52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.                  53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"                                                55 At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me.                                                        56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.

You see how trying to refute the bible, Osama is making himself look bad!! He can’t be Islamic since he believes these scriptures. I guess he just likes to pick and choose out of context.

Now in Isaiah 9:6 "......and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder......",

Let us look at Luke 22:29 "and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father (my GOD) has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,".  Here we see that Jesus came down to serve Jehovah's Kingdom.  It wasn't Jehovah who was in Jesus in this verse.  It was Jesus the Messenger of God who was serving his God's Kingdom, Jehovah's Kingdom.

If we read in the next verse we see that Jesus said – “that you may eat and drink at MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM…” If Jesus was serving Jehovah’s Kingdom like Osama claims, then why did he say IN MY KINGDOM?  When we look at this we clearly see that Jesus is claiming God’s kingdom to be HIS KINGDOM.  Mr. Osama doesn’t put these scriptures because he expects the readers not to go and check for themselves.  I’ve been on his discussion board, on his site, and I’ve seen Muslims say wow, your site is very informative, etc.  It looks that way on the surface until someone goes and actually researches what Osama claims.  This again was answered on my first site, however Osama thinks that he can fool his reader by reposting the same information again and then claiming that it wasn’t answered.  This works well with Muslims and this might explain why he is to wimpy enough to post my link to allow the reader to judge from both sides.

Let us look at  2 Samuel 7:13 -14 "He (David) is the one that will build a house for My Name (Jehovah's Name), and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite.  I myself shall become his Father (His Guardian or Inspirer), and he himself will become my son.  When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam."  In this verse, we see that David who came before Jesus had done the same thing to God as Jesus did.  David was a king, leader, and a messenger from God.  It doesn't say that Jehovah is in David, nor it says that David is Jehovah.  The same way we interpret 2 Samuel 7:13-14  and all the verses about David should be the same way we should interpret the Verses that talk about Jesus.  Jesus is not Jehovah, nor ever was.

Now lets look at 2 Samuel 7:13-14.  Osama tries to downplay the meaning of “HE HIMSELF WILL BE MY SON”.  So I want to ask him this question, was anybody except Jesus called “GOD’S ONLY BEGOTTEN SON”?  Remember, the word for only is yachid and monogenes in Hebrew and Greek respectively.  If I was a martial arts Sensei and I called one of my students ‘MY SON’ is it the same like being called “MY ONLY BEGOTTEN SON”? No.  With that being said lets show you how deceitful Mr. Osama really is with this passage.

 He purposely misinterprets 2 Samuel 7:13-14 and tries to make it David when it actually refers to Jesus!  Don’t believe me, Read 2 Samuel 7:12 –“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed AFTER YOU, WHO WILL COME FROM YOUR BODY, AND I WILL ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM.” Notice how if the reader starts at vs. 8 of the passage and continue down you will see that it’s talking about a SEED AFTER DAVID AND NOT DAVID. When you see this it shows you that 1.) Osama probably copied and pasted this information from another site or 2.) He purposely left it out to fool his reader.  From seeing it answered before and then having him post it again, I am utterly convinced that Osama is just a liar.

Let us look at Revelation 19:16 "And upon his (Jesus) outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."  Here we see that Jesus was called the King of all Kings and the Lord (leader or master) of all Lords (masters).  It doesn't prove anything about Jesus being Jehovah, nor ever talks about Jehovah.  

Mr. Osama also lies about this passage because if the reader reads Revelation 19:12-16-

12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.                                                                                                                                                         13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.                                                          14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.              15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."  He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.                                                                 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

We see that Jesus was called 1.) The Word of God, 2.) The Ruler of ALL Nations, and 3.) The carrier of the wrath of God himself.  Mr. Osama doesn’t have any knowledge of the word lord “Kurios” in Greek. Strong concordance says this about the word when it refers to the Messiah- 1.he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord a. the possessor and disposer of a thing 1.the owner; one who has control of the person, the master. b.is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master c.this title is given to: God, the Messiah.  When referring to Jesus, it has always meant a sign of divinity.  Since this term has always applied to God and the Messiah and Muslims believe that Christ is the Messiah then this clearly shows just how divine Jesus really is.  If Osama wants to teach about Christianity he should go out and purchase a Greek concordance and interlinear text. Since he knows where to find the concordance online, thanks to Mr. Mohd, he has no more excuses.

Let us look at Mathew 28:18-20 "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying:  All authority (from GOD) has been given me in heaven and on the earth.  Go therefore and make disciples of people of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (GOD's inspiration), teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.  And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."  Here in this verse we have few points that Trinitarians often confuse.  Trinitarians use this verse very heavily to try to prove that Jehovah or Allah is 3 in 1, meaning that GOD is the father + Jesus + The Holy Spirit.  

This claim is a false one, because when Jesus said in Mathew 28:18-20 ".....All authority (from GOD) has been give to me in heaven and on the earth...." it clearly shows that Jesus had a stronger or higher power over him.  One has to ask himself a very simple question here:  How can GOD say that GOD had given him authority?  It doesn't make any sense, does it?

Also, when Jesus in Mathew 28:18-20 said ".....baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (GOD'S inspiration)...." he didn't say go and baptize people in my name (Jehovah).  He mentioned his GOD first, then himself (GOD'S messenger), and in GOD's inspiration (The Holy Spirit).  This clearly disproves the claim that GOD IS THREE = GOD+JESUS+HOLY SPIRIT.  

Osama claims that this passage is false based on his own opinion. Now lets the reader read the whole passage of Matt 28:1-20-

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.                                                                                                                                     2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.                                                                                                              3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:                                                                               4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.                                                                          5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.                                                                                                                                                                    6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.                                                        7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.                                                                                                                         8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.              9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.                                                                                                                                            10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. 11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.                                                                                                                                                   12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, 13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.                                                      14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.                                                         15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.                                                                                                                                                                      16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.                          17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.                                                                           18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.                                19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:                                                                                                                                                                         20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Anyone reading clearly sees that these comments made by Jesus came after his resurrection. The angels in Matt 28:5-6 gave testament of Christ's crucifixion and told the people present that Christ has risen.  One must ask this simple question, do you believe in the crucifixion of Christ Osama? If not, then why are you posting these scriptures about him, they occurred AFTER the crucifixion!!!  Also lets look at this passage closely. We saw earlier that Christ was crucified, but we also see Jesus telling them “ALL HAIL” which his disciples felled down to worship him!!! If Jesus was just a prophet how come he didn’t stop them. He told them to HAIL him, and they did!!!  Also notice the scripture says to baptize in the NAME, WHICH IS SINGULAR of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. That is 3 different beings in ONE!! Which the Greek text clearly shows.

Also, when Jesus in Mathew 28:18-20 said "......teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you....." well of course Jesus's disciples needed to teach people from what Jesus taught them !!!.  Jesus was GOD's messenger, and God's favorite "Son" at that time.  GOD had inspired Jesus with all the teachings that people need to go and preach worshiping Jehovah, love and harmony to all people.  

If they did needed to teach what Jesus taught them, then they must also teach the crucifixion, which is something that occurred right before these verses, as well as the resurrection of Christ!!! Since Osama clearly mentions this he must believe that Jesus was crucified.  If he didn’t then obviously he wouldn’t be this stupid to mention this.  He is caught red handed by posting out of context. He has proven Jesus crucifixion and resurrection by trying to disprove it.  Also Osama also commits an error by Saying that Jesus was “GOD’S FAVORITE SON AT THAT TIME”.  This contradicts his own holy book the Quran look at Surah 9:30-And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

Mr. Osama himself is guilty of this because Allah says that He takes no "Son". Mr. Osama said that Jesus was God's favorite "SON" at that time. So he does the same thing that Allah forbids. Mr. Osama why do you mention this in your defense of Islam? This is a contradiction to what your own God says. You must not be Islamic since Allah says that only Christians look at Christ as the Son of God.

Also, when Jesus said in Mathew 28:18-20 ".....And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." he (Jesus) was referring to the Holy Spirit that GOD will send to Jesus's disciples through either Jesus's inspiration or GOD's inspiration to them.  This also doesn't prove that Jesus is Jehovah or Allah.  We must keep in mind that Jesus was not a normal human being.  He was the King of all Kings and the Lord of all Lords as stated above in (Revelation 19:16 .  He had power from GOD, and he was GOD's favorite "Son" at that time.  Jesus had the power to inspire his followers through GOD's Power, because GOD allowed him to do that.

If Jesus wasn’t a normal human being then obviously he was a divine human being!!! If he wans’t normal Osama then explain to us what type of human being he was. Also Mr. Osama said that God inspired Jesus in all of his teachings, but then he says that Jesus didn't tell people to baptize in his name, but yet told people later to baptize in his name after mentioning God's name. Since God inspired him like Mr. Osama claims then that means that God has partners which he ascribes to him which contradicts Surah 9:31-They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

By trying to disprove the Trinity Mr. Osama is actually proving it by1.) calling Jesus Jehovah (lord-Yahweh in Hebrew) in his original paper (notice he modified it in his next trinity rebuttal papers) which is only used to name God, contradicting is unitarian use of Mark 12:29, mentioned below as well as Dueteronomy 6:4 mentioned above, and his own Holy book the Quran in Surah 9:31. 2.) Using Matthew 28 when it shows what happened after the resurrection when Surah 4:157 says he was never crucified 3.)Saying that all of Jesus revelations was inspired by God when he spoke these words after he was crucified which is direct contradiction of Surah 4:157. 4.)Saying that Jesus revelations was inspired when Allah said that he was caught up before he was crucified Surah 4:157-59. Mr. Osama is saying that Jesus spoke these inspired revelations by God after he was resurrected which is something anyone can see when they read all of Matt 28, instead of picking out just one scripture.  If Jesus was resurrected when he said this the he wasn’t crucified which debunks Osama’s own holy book the Quran!!! Ladies and gentlemen you see how by trying to debunk the trinity, and crucifixion Osama is actually proving himself to be a bible neophyte.

Further more about Matthew 28:18-20 from www.jewsforjudaism.org:

Question: Doesn't the command by Matthew's Jesus to, "Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19) show the existence of a triune deity.

Answer: Matthew 28:19 states: "Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Although the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are grouped together, this verse does not prove the existence of a triune deity. The verse merely indicates the author's belief that they are to be mentioned together during baptism. Each is thought to have a function in the initiation of the believer during the baptism ritual. Yet no doctrine of coequality among them is promulgated in this verse.
In the early period baptism was simply in "Christ" (Galatians 3:27) or in the name of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:13, Acts 8:16, 19:5). The text in Matthew represents a later stage of development, but is still not trinitarian in meaning. The doctrine of the trinity is a still later development.

Yes Matthews 28:19 does show the existence of a triune being. This verse does prove the existence because NAME IS SINGULAR and not plural and the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost are more than a numerical ONE. Read these verses to see how they operate together showing why Matthews wrote it like this:

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 'Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." John 17:1-5 

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Luke 10:22

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you." John 16:13

"All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them." John 17:10

Just in case Osama or Mohd tries to water down the statements from the Lord Jesus Christ, we appeal to what he believes to be authoritative scriptures to show that the claims made by Jesus affirm that the Lord Jesus is God:

"To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: It is He who gives life and death; and He has power over all things." S. 57:2

"To God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; And God hath power over all things." S. 3:189

"And certainly We! We it is Who give life, and cause death, and We are THE HEIRS." S. 15:23

"Lo! We, only We, inherit the earth and all who are thereon, and unto Us they are returned." S. 19:40

"Jesus said to them, 'Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, THE SON DOES LIKEWISE. The Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing; and he will show him greater works than these, so that you will be astonished. Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, SO ALSO THE SON GIVES LIFE TO WHOMEVER HE WISHES. The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, SO THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear HIS VOICE and come out-those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.'" John 5:19-29

To show a point, Trinitarians do not believe that the three Persons function independently, but rather they work in perfect harmony and unity. Hence, any reference of Jesus doing what is commanded of him reinforces the Trinitarian understanding of God. This is something Both Osama and Jews for Judaism seem to be grossly ignorant about. What more can you expect from Bible neophytes.

Let us look at Hebrew 5:7 "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."  Here we see Jesus prayed to God be saved and God HEARD ( in any religious speech the HEARD means that the person has been answer with the prayer) him.

And, So? We all know that Jesus prayed to God to have this cup pass from him but what Osama doesn’t post from Hebrews is this:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Also read the next 2 verses from Chapter 5, which Osama didn’t post:

8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered                                                                              9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Notice that Jesus was obedience to the cross, and only he, not Hajj Allah, Muhammad nor the Quran is the source for eternal salvation. This shows why Bible neophyte Osama posted out of context.

Let us look at Mark 12:29 "The first of all the commandments is, Here, O Israel:  The Lord our God is one Lord."  If trinity was a valid belief, then Mark 12:29 would have said "God is three in one".

As mentioned earlier the word “one” in Hebrew, echad never has meant just a single numerical one. The disciples and the prophets knew this.  Remember when you have more than a numerical one working as ONE it is called A UNIT, which is one of the epithets of one.

Let us also look at Acts 3:22 "In fact, Moses said:  Jehovah will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.  You must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you."  Here we see Prophet Moses peace be upon him predicting the coming Prophet Jesus peace be upon him.  Acts 3:22 didn't say that Jehovah will come down to earth in a form of a human being.  Moses said in Acts 3:22 ".....a prophet like me.....", which means that Jesus will be a human being like Moses.  If Jesus was Jehovah or Allah himself, then Moses wouldn't have said ".....a prophet like me.....".

If you look at Osama’s explanation, it is more opinion than facts because there is no way possible for us to believe that Jesus wasn’t God based on if Moses wouldn’t have said “a prophet like me.”  Also to show you something else, Osama either has or once had a part on his site talking about Muhammad in the Bible.  The scripture of Acts 3:22 he uses is a reference to Deuteronomy 18:15, 19. Osama himself said that Moses was talking about Jesus so why would he use this also to say that it referred to Muhammad? This lets us know That Mr. Osama doesn’t fairly present the truth.  Now lets look at the passage of Acts in greater detail. If we start from Acts 3:12-25-

12 When Peter saw this, he said to them: "Men of Israel, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?                                                                                        13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.                                      14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you.                                  15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.                       16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.                                               17" Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.                                                             18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ [1] would suffer.                                                                                                                                                           19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,                                                                                                                                                                       20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus.                                                     21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.                                                                                                                                        22 For Moses said, `The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.                                                                                             23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.' [2]                                      24 "Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days.                   25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, `Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.' [3]                                                                     26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

            1.18 Or Messiah; also in verse 20

             2.23 Deut. 18:15,18,19

             3.25 Gen. 22:18; 26:4

We see that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that Christ fulfilled God’s promise by suffering and dying as well as every prophet from Samuel foretold of that day, in which the crucifixion took place.  Mr. Osama then must believe that Jesus was crucified since he used Acts 3:22 which is the very heart of the passage!  He goes against the Quran, which claims that Christ was never crucified.  Osama is very typical of many Muslim web administrators who foolishly try to discredit the Bible by using scriptures with no content as well as preconceived opinions.

Let us look at Mathew 3:16 "After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him.  Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved."  Here we see how much GOD loved Jesus and how much he admired him.  Jehovah or Allah in Mathew 3:16 was clearly greeting his messenger (Jesus), and telling him how much he loves him.

Osama tries to downplay this verse, Osama seems to have forgotten that Allah doesn’t have a son, so apparently this was Elohim, and not the counterfeit Hajj Allah calling down from heaven. God sayed this only for Jesus which shows us just how special he was. Remember Jesus was God’s ONLY (monogenes) begotten Son. Which goes against the Quran and what Mr. Osama claims.

The devil tempting Jesus 3 times:

In Mathew 4:1-2 "Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.  After he had fasted forty days and forty nights, then he felt hungry."  One has to ask himself a very simple question here:  Why would Jesus allow the Devil to lead him to the wilderness to try to tempt him if he were God?  This clearly proves that Jesus is not and can not be God!!!.

Mr. Osama makes a very dubious statement by calling "the spirit" The Devil. The scripture doesn’t say that Jesus was led by the Devil, it said the Spirit (Spirit of the Holy Spirit) led Jesus. Lets look at the terms in Greek the language of the NT. The word for spirit is pneumatos and devil is "diabolus". These 2 words are never the same in Greek. Osama says that this proves that Jesus is not God, but what he claims is false. Why? Because the scripture clearly says that Jesus was led BY THE SPIRIT TO BE TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL!!! Not led by the Devil to be tempted. If the Devil would’ve led Christ then in Greek as well as English, we would’ve seen "Lead by the Spirit of the Devil" not led by the Spirit to be tempted of the Devil.

In Mathew 4:5-6 "The the devil took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him upon the battlement of the temple and said to him:  If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down; for it is written He (Jehovah) will give his angels a charge concerning you, and they will carry you on their hands, that you may at no time strike your foot against a stone.  Jesus said to him:  Again it is written, you must not put Jehovah your God to the test."  Here we see that the devil for the second time tried to tempt Jesus and have him do things that would make him doubt his GOD Jehovah or Allah.  Jesus replied to him by telling him that no matter what you try to do, you will never be able to test your GOD (your creator).  The devil was trying to have Jehovah or Allah send angels to Jesus, and Jesus made it clear to the devil that no one can put GOD to the test, and no one can have GOD do anything without the will of GOD.  The devil will never be able to have Jehovah or Allah send down his angels if Jehovah didn't will it.

Mr. Osama is using a Jehovah Witness Bible to attack Christianity as a Whole!! That’s the equivalent of me using the Nation of Islam beliefs to attack Islam as a whole! This scripture can’t prove anything either because in Greek the literal translation is "THE SON OF GOD". There is no "a" –"a son of" present in this scripture in Greek. The "a" would be alpha, there is no "a" or alpha, so therefore Osama’s defense is solely based on a purposely mistranslation of the NT!!! If Osama doesn’t believe me, he can ask a Greek expert on this. His site should be named ANSWERING JEHOVAH WITNESS!!! Osama thinks that Jehovah Witness are Christians? Wow that’s hilarious because they were started here in America and they don’t call themselves Christians, one of my close best friends was one. As long as God is plural and the words describing him are plural, there will never be a true Unitarian Christian. Neither them nor the Muslims have an answer for the plurality of God as expressed in the Bible.  What happen to your beloved NIV Osama?

In Mathew 4:8-10 "Again the devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him:  All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.  Then Jesus said to him:  God away Satan! For it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone, you must render sacred service."  Here we clearly see that after the devil offered Jesus the world, Jesus told him to go away and to go and worship Allah Almighty or Jehovah.  One has to ask himself a very simple question here:  If Jesus was Jehovah, then how come he didn't tell Satan in Mathew 4:8-10 "It is me whom you must worship" ?  Jesus told Satan "It is Jehovah your God you must worship", which clearly shows that Jesus is not Jehovah!!!.

Mr. Osama again is using a Jehovah Witness Bible. Osama Don’t you know that Jehovah Witness only holds to about 20 Million members worldwide, while Christianity (the largest religion on Earth) has over 1/3 of the entire population. So why are you using a Jehovah Witness Bible to attack Christianity? Well anyway lets look at Matthew 4:7 closely- It says- Jesus SAID unto him (Satan), it is written again, THOU SHALT NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD. The Jehovah Witness Bible is based on the Same Greek Text like any other English Bible (Anyone of them will tell you that) so lets look at the Greek text and compare the 2. Matt 4:7 is the most important verse: it shows Jesus being God, that’s why Osama didn’t start from this verse using a reliable English Bible. The J.W. version says "Jesus said to him. Again it is written. You must not put Jehovah your God to the test." Now look at the Greek scripture-"Ephe (said) auto (To him) O Iesous (Jesus), Palin (again) genraptai (it has been written) ouk (Not) Ekpeiraseis (you will tempt/pressure) Kuriou (Lord/Master) Tou (the) Theos (God) sou (of you). The direct translation is "Jesus said to him (satan) you will NOT TEMPT THE LORD GOD OF YOU. Jesus was the only one being tempted and Jesus told Satan "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God". Osama is using scriptures that can’t even exist in the original language of the NT. When Jesus told Satan to worship God, he was talking about himself As well as his father. How? 1.) Jesus was the only one being tempted in the desert and the told Satan "ThOU SHALT NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD" 2.)When he told Satan to worship God using the word "HIM". Osama is a Muslim, so he is more familiar with Arabic not Greek or Hebrew. If Osama claims that no one can answer his Greek references then why is he using a Jehovah witness bible which is well known mistranslation of the Greek Text? Is this your great Greek reference Osama?

Let us look at Isaiah 11:2-3 "And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counselor and of mightiness, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah; and there will be enjoyment by him in the fear of Jehovah."  In this verse, we clearly see that Jehovah or Allah Almighty will be with Jesus to guide him, inspire him, and to educate him.  That spirit is called the spirit of Mightiness, where God had blessed his messenger Jesus peace be upon him with that holy spirit.  This verse clearly shows that Jesus is not Jehovah.  In Isaiah 11:2 -3 we see GOD Almighty had defined for the meaning of spirit of Jehovah.  It means the spirit knowledge and knowing the full truth, and the spirit of leading people to the path of GOD, and finally the spirit of fearing Jehovah, where Jesus must fear Jehovah and do only what Jehovah command him to do because Jesus is Jehovah's messenger and not Jehovah himself.  

This explanation doesn’t say anything truthful because if one looks at Isaiah 11:2-5, we see that Jesus is coming to judge the Earth and that this would be in the future, just look at “THAT DAY” in vs. 10.  This always refer to the day of the lord in the tribulation. I have been studying end time prophecy for 14 years and I know people who’ve been studying 25-50 years. If Osama doesn’t even know this then how can he explain to us about Christianity?

Let us look at Isaiah 42:1 "Look! My servant (Jesus), on whom I keep fast hold! My chosen one, whom my soul has approved! I have put my spirit in him.  Justice to the nations is what he will bring forth." Here we see clearly that Jehovah or Allah Almighty had called Jesus his servant.  His chosen servant, whom GOD had put the spirit of guidance (as shown in the previous verse Isaiah 11:2-3) into him to guide him and to teach him the truth so he can deliver it to his people, the people of Israel and to nations that will receive his message.  God was talking about Jesus as his servant and not as himself.

Osama still seems to not know anything about Christian doctrine since Christ is classified as both Servant and God.

But he continued, 'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins.’" John 8:23-24

"’Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.' 'You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, 'and you have seen Abraham!’ 'I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I AM!’" John 8:56-58

"I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." John 16:28

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN." John 17:5

Interestingly, the Lord had sworn to never give his own glory to any other:

"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols." Isaiah 42:8

"For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another." Isaiah 48:11

Yet Jesus claims to have preexisted in the same glory that the Father had before the creation of the world. This affirms that both Father and Son are the one God Yahweh. Which explains this:

John 10:31-33:                                                                                                                                                        30 I and the Father are one."                                                                                                                               31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,                                                                                                32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"                                                                                                                                                                        33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy,because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus himself said this and they stoned him. So for Osama to say that Jesus wasn’t God because of this matter is fallible since Jesus claimed to be both a servant and God. How many servants have claimed or have been stoned for this? None, except Christ. All Osama has is to try and pick and choose from the bible to support his thoughts.

Let us look at Isaiah 52:13 "Look! My servant (Jesus) will act with insight (inspiration from GOD).  He will be in high station and will certainly be elevated and exalted very much."  Here again, we see GOD talking about Jesus as her servant and not as himself, and is promising that his servant (Jesus) will be well respected and well admired.  GOD will inspire Jesus all the way throughout his ministry so they can learn the full truth.  It doesn't prove anything about Jesus being GOD himself !!!.

Now lets look at Isaiah 52. We see that Jesus is known as a servant but when you continue reading you see especially in Isaiah 53:9 that Jesus was to die!! -And he made hisss grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.  In the Hebrew word rendered “death” is an intensive plural. It has been suggested that it spoke of the violence of Christ’s death, the very pain of which made it like a repeated death” (NKJV, footnote, pg 843, Scoffield, 1989).  If we continue reading on we see that the suffering servant, Jesus, dies which again refutes the Quran and Mr. Osama, who is a Muslim.  On page 842 of the footnotes we see that the suffering servant passage actually begins at this point. Ironically, Mr. Osama uses this scripture, which shows us that he didn’t know about this matter or that he believes that Jesus was going to be crucified!!! It’s hard to refute Christianity with scriptures like these, especially those that refute the Quran showing that Jesus was crucified.

Let us look at Mathew 12:18 "Look! My servant (Jesus) whom I chose, my beloved, whom my soul approved!  I will put my spirit upon him, and what justice is he will make clear to the nations."  This verse is similar to Isaiah 42:1 where Allah Almighty or Jehovah calls Jesus his servant and not himself, and promises to inspire him all the way through his ministry.  Let us see the many others who carried GOD's Spirit in them in the Bible:

We know that Christ was a servant but Christ himself claimed to be more than that:

Matthew 12:6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.                                                                        7 If you had known what these words mean, `I desire mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent.                                                                                                                                                                     8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Only Yahweh was lord of the Sabbath since he instituted it. Now if this be the case then Jesus was specifically claiming to be greater than Yahweh’s Sabbath. Also we know that Jesus wasn’t the only one with the spirit of God, many carried God’s spirit.

Others who carried GOD's Spirit in them:

Numbers 24:2 "When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"

Judges 3:10 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into
the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."

Judges 6:34 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."

Judges 11:29 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites."

Judges 14:6 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told
neither his father nor his mother what he had done."

Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house."

Judges 15:14 "As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands."

1 Samuel 10:6 "The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person."

1 Samuel 10:10 "When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying."

1 Samuel 11:6 "When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he burned with anger."

1 Samuel 16:13 "So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah."

The word for Spirit is Ruwach it means these various definitions:

1.wind, breath, mind, spirit a.breath b.wind 1.of heaven 2.quarter (of wind), side 3.breath of air 4.air, gas 5.vain, empty thing c.spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) 1.spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour 2.courage 3.temper, anger 4.impatience, patience 5.spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented) 6.disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse 7.prophetic spirit d.spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1.as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being e.spirit (as seat of emotion) 1.desire 2.sorrow, trouble f.spirit  1.as seat or organ of mental acts 2.rarely of the will  3.as seat especially of moral character  g.Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son 1.as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy 2.as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning 3.imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power 4.as endowing men with variousgifts 5.as energy of life 6.as manifest in the Shekinah glory 7.never referred to as a depersonalised force

Word Usage - Total: 378 Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4, vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, miscellaneous 6. In the Bible this word is translated more as Spirit, like a divine manefestation, 232 and it is only wind and breath a total of 119 times!!!!

1 Samuel 16:16 "Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better."   GOD HAS AN EVIL SPIRIT??!!

1 Samuel 16:23 "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him."

1 Samuel 18:10 "The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand..."  ANOTHER EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD??!!

1 Samuel 19:9 "But an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp,..."  ANOTHER EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD??!!

What I want to focus on is particularly these verses.  Osama claims that God has an evil spirit.  By doing this he is trying to make the reader think that the spirit that God puts on people can be either good or bad. When one reads the Bible we clearly see that God uses Satan and his minions to carry out his will. This is nothing new.  However unlike the God of the Bible, we see that the evil spirit not God himself is the one who does evil.  Now lets see just how evil Allah really is.

 The Holy Bible teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and neither tempts anyone with evil; evil being understood as referring to immorality and sin. James 1:13 (c.f. Psalm 5:4-5; Habakkuk 1:13). Remember there is a difference in sending a spirit and actually doing evil yourself.

Yet, the Quran teaches that Allah is the author of evil:

And (the unbelievers ) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54

Remember how the unbelievers schemed against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or to slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They scheme and plot, but the best of schemers is Allah. S. 8:30

The term for scheme in Arabic is makara which denotes one who is a deceiver, one who is conniving, a schemer. It is always used in a negative sense. Allah is thus seen as the best of deceivers, the premiere schemer and conniving one.

 This is not simply a Christian perspective but one thoroughly endorsed by Muslim theologians as well.

For example Dr. Mahmoud M. Ayoub in his book, The Quran and Its Interpreters, Vol. II The House of Imran , brings up the question of "how the word makr (scheming or plotting), which implies deceitfulness or dishonesty, could be attributed to God." (Ibid. [ 1992 State University of New York Press, Albany ], p. 165 )

After listing several Muslim sources he quotes ar-Razi as arguing that "scheming (makr) is actually an act of deception aiming at causing evil. It is not possible to attribute deception to God. Thus the word is one of the muttashabihat [multivalent words of the Quran]." (Ibid., p. 166)

In fact the Quran furnishes plenty of examples on some of the methods Allah adopts in devising evil:

Remember in thy dream Allah showed them as a few: if he had showed them to thee as many, ye would surely have been discouraged, and ye would surely have disputed in your decision: but Allah saved you: for He knoweth well the( secrets ) of ( all ) hearts. S. 8:43

Allah is said to have shown the opposing fighting forces as few to Muhammad since if he had shown them as they actually were, the Muslims would have been afraid to fight. Hence, Allah had to use deception in order to encourage the Muslims to fight in his cause.

And when We desire to destroy a city, We command its men who live at ease, and they commit ungodliness therein, then the Word is realized against it, and We destroy it utterly. S. 17:16

Allah commands men to sin in order to destroy them completely.

They (Jinns- demon spirits) worked for him (Solomon) as he desired ... then when We decreed death upon him, nothing showed them his death except a little creeping creature of the earth, which gnawed away at his staff. And when he fell the Jinns saw clearly how, if they had known the unseen, they would not have continued in the humiliating penalty (of work). S. 34:13-14

Allah deceived the Jinns into working for Solomon by preventing the latter's death from being disclosed to them, otherwise they would have stopped their work.

Allah also deceived both Christians and Jews into thinking that Jesus was crucified when in fact "it was so made to appear unto them", seeing that he never was crucified or killed. S. 4:157

According to S. 9:51, nothing befalls Muslims except what Allah has ordained. And in S. 14:4, we are told,

"Allah leads astray whomsoever He will and guides whomsoever he will."

And,

"Whomsoever Allah guides, he is rightly guided, and whom He leads astray, they are the losers! We have created for Hell many Jinns and men... Do ye desire to guide him whom Allah led astray? Whom Allah leads away, you will find no way for him." S. 4:87, 90 (c.f. S. 11:118, 120)

Not only does Allah guide people astray, but also has created men specifically for hell. To make matters worse, he even ordains the evil one commits as we have already seen in S. 17:16 and further clarified by this Muslim tradition:

   Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle as saying:

Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he of necessity must commit (or there would be no escape from it )." Sahih Muslim # 6421, 6422

To even imagine that Allah causes adultery is not only horrendous but disqualifies him from being the God of Moses.  We see from these examples that Hajj Allah is the god of evil, much like Satan in the Bible.  We also see that Allah had demons working for Solomon.  How can Osama criticize the Bible and God when Allah sends devils and commits acts of evil himself? This is the dilemma Muslim web administrators have yet to explain.

1 Samuel 19:20 "so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came upon Saul's men and they also prophesied."

1 Samuel 19:23 "So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth."

2 Chronicles 15:1 "The Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded."

Ezekiel 11:5 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind."

Ezekiel 37:1 "The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones."

Luke 1:35 "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Mary), and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

Luke 2:25 "Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him."

We mentioned earlier about spirit so there is no reason to reiterate. However we have seen from the definition of Spirit, God specifies who his spirit is. 

Now, why do we have to consider Jesus as the Creater of this Universe or someone who is equal to GOD just because GOD had put His spirit in Jesus, and not consider the many others who carried GOD's spirit above as equal to GOD?

We don’t and we have never did.  We considered Jesus equaled to God because the Bible prophesied about him and because Jesus on numerous occasions claimed to be equaled with God. Something we discussed much earlier in this paper. I don’t know where did Osama get this idea from.  Christians and Jews alike have always known that God puts his spirit on people. Jesus himself said that the Disciples will be endowed with God’s spirit at Pentecost.

Now, let us look at John 4:34 "Jesus said to them:  My food is for me to do the will of him (Jehovah) that sent me and to finish his work." Here we see clearly that Jesus told his followers that GOD is higher than him, and Jesus can only do things within Jehovah's will.  Also Jesus said that his mission is to finish the work of Jehovah that was assigned to Jesus peace be upon him.

When we read John 4:34, we see that Jesus doesn’t say at all that God was higher than him, like Osama claims. Mr. Osama is very good at making claims and accusations that doesn’t exist, this is just another one of his tricks to fool the reader. Since we discuss earlier how the Trinity works in unison, then commonsense would show why Jesus was to do the will of his father. Again Osama tries to answer the Trinity but yet he doesn’t seem to even know the basic meaning of it.

Let us look at John 5:30 "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."  Here we see two things in this verse:  First, Jesus recognized, admitted and preached to his followers that his is nothing special nor have any power in him.  Second, Jesus does nothing of his own will; he only does the will of GOD who sent him and who inspires him.

Mr. Osama must not know about John 5:17-18 –“But Jesus answered them, My father has been working until now, and I have been working.  Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him because he not only broke the Sabbath but also said that God was HIS FATHER, making himself EQUAL WITH GOD.”  Literally, “His own Father”-Greek- patera idion.  It is clear that the Jews understood that Jesus was claiming to be God.’” (NKJV, footnote, pg 843, Scoffield, 1989).  Also if Osama reads the verse Jesus clearly says “I SEEK NOT MY OWN WILL”. Why because like the basic understanding of the Trinity, God works as one.

Let us look at John 5:31 "If I  (Jesus) alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true.  There is another that bears witness about me, and I know that the witness which he bears about me is true."  Here we also see that Jesus admits and preaches to his followers that he is not powerful.  The only powerful is GOD, his GOD.

Jesus never mentioned anything about power.  Mr. Osama is trying to develop a straw man argument and then refute it to show his reader that Jesus wasn’t powerful.  However, talking about a witness is totally different than power.  The Greek word for power is “dhynami”, which isn’t present at all in this verse.  “The Statement here (5:31) might be paraphrased as follows ‘If I testify about myself, you will say my testimony is not valid.’ Against the charge our Lord, in defending his messianic claims urges the biblical rule of evidence which requires two or three witnesses (Num. 35:30; DT. 17:6; Jn 8:17-18).  The additional witnesses are cited in vs. 32-47.” (IBID).  Jesus had to have a witness in order to go along with the rules set by God in the OT.  It’s amazing how Muhammad never had a single witness to verify his alleged call at the cave.  This disqualifies him from being a prophet based on God’s rules.

Let us look at John 5:36-38 "But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father (my GOD) assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father (GOD) dispatched me.  Also, the Father (GOD) who sent me has himself borne witness about me.  You have neither heard his voice at any time nor ever seen his figure; and you do not have his word remaining in you, because the very one whom he dispatched you do not believe."  Personally speaking, I never had a single Trinitarian explain this verse to me directly.  They always give me indirect answers that have nothing to do with this verse (John 5:36-38).  Here we see Jesus again clearly defines GOD as greater than him, and he told his followers that they have never seen GOD nor ever heard his voice.  I don't know what more Allah Almighty and Jesus need to say to prove to Trinitarians that GOD and Jesus are two separate beings !!!.

Let us look at Deuteronomy 4:12 "And GOD began to speak to you out of the middle of the fire.  The sound of words was what were you hearing, but no form were you seeing nothing but a voice."  This verse is another proof that no one ever seen GOD in any form.

Mr. Osama purposely tries to misunderstand this verse by not reading the entire passage. In my dealing with Mr. Osama, he never really tries to understand Christianity.  He even stooped to cursing Christians out at one time.  If we read John 6:40-41 we see that Jesus came down FROM HEAVEN.  John 6:42-46-

42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, `I came down from heaven'?"                                                                                                                                  43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered.                                                                                           44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.            45 It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.                                                                                                                               46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Jesus says in vs. 46 that no one has seen god except HE WHO IS FROM GOD!  Jesus claimed to come from heaven, which makes him the only one who has seen God! Mr. Osama doesn’t understand this verse because unlike the Quran you have to read more than a few verses to understand a point in the Bible. Also Jesus said that the prophets claim that THEY WILL BE TAUGHT BY GOD!  Jesus was the one who was teaching them!!!

Mr. Osama also lies about Deuteronomy 4:12.  He says that God spoke out of the middle of the fire.  Elohim is God in Hebrew and it isn’t present in this verse. The word “Lord” which is Yahweh in Hebrew, not Elohim.  When you look at it in this light you see that it was the Angel of YAHWEH who spoke to Moses in Exodus 3.  This ANGEL CALLED HIMSELF “I AM THAT I AM”. An angel is a man, as well as a heavenly being.  So we see that a man who is called God spoke to Moses. Read Strong’s Concordance on Angel in the OT.—Mal'ak

Definition:1.messenger, representative a. messenger b.angel c.the theophanic angel

Word Origin from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy

Who claimed to be God? It was Jesus who was divine as well as a man! Osama continues by saying:

Now in Isaiah 9:6 "......Mighty God,....."

Trinitarians confuse this mistranslated and misinterpreted "Might God" expression with Jehovah or Allah Almighty.  They think it means the actual GOD.  Please note that in the "Kings James Version" Bible, the word "Mighty" in Isaiah 9:6 is "mighty".  The only unique title given to Allah Almighty in the Bible is:  Jehovah, GOD, and GOD LORD.  "God", "Mighty One", and "Most Mighty" are magnifying titles that were given to other people in the Bible that do not refer to Allah Almighty (GOD) himself.  Read further down !.

Does the Bible in the Old Testament confirm trinity?

Let us look at Mark 12:29 "The First is, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One."  Jesus, according to the source of Christianity, in the records that we have of his sayings, never made a claim to be divine.  In an answer to a question on what the first commandment was, he replied by saying God is One.  Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 6:4.  Therefore, let us examine the Hebrew of this verse:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.  (Deuteronomy 6:4)"   Trinitarian Christians claim that this verse states that the LORD is a "compound one"; he is multiple entities or objects combined together forming one GOD.  However, since I do not speak Hebrew, I left it for the Hebrew speaking Jews to respond to them:

The following question and answer were taken from www.jewsforjudaism.org:

Question: The word 'echad, "one," is used in the Jewish Scriptures in either a compound or absolute sense. In what sense is 'echad used in the Shema, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" (Deuteronomy 6:4)?

Answer: In such verses as Genesis 1:5: "And there was evening and there was morning, one day," and Genesis 2:24: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh," the term 'echad, "one," refers to a compound united one.

Also remember the word ONE can mean a single thing, but ONE is also a unit! If Osama tries to use Echad as a defense to say that God is just a single numerical one then how in the world can the compound unity of this word be explained away? If Osama tries to use echad as a means of claiming that God isn’t compound he isn’t proving anything.

However, 'echad often also means an absolute one. This is illustrated by such verses as 2 Samuel 13:30: "Absolom has slain all the king's sons, and there is not one of them left"; 2 Samuel 17:12: "And of all the men that are with him we will not leave so much as one"; Exodus 9:7: "There did not die of the cattle of Israel even one"; 2 Samuel 17:22: "There lacked not one of them that was not gone over the Jordan"; Ecclesiastes 4:8: There is one [that is alone], and he has not a second; yea, he has neither son nor brother." Clearly, the word "one" used in these verses means an absolute one and is synonymous with the word yachid, "the only one," "alone." It is in this sense, with even greater refinement, that 'echad is used in Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." Here, 'echad is used as a single, absolute, unqualified one. There is no mention of a triune god. 

Look at 2 Samuel 13:30 closely:

Absolom has slain all the king's sons, and there is not one of them left"

Here we see that the one here is modifying the plural SONS not Son, In this verse we don’t see just a single numerical son but a group of Sons which echad uses to describe as ONE. Therefore this is referring to UNIT, which is numerically more than 1 being mentioned as one. Look at 2 Samuel 17:12

"And of all the men that are with him we will not leave so much as one"

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that ONE or (echad) is referring to ALL OF THE MEN which is plural and not singular thus again debunking the idea that echad is used as a singular term in these scriptures. Look at 2 Samuel 17:22

"There lacked not one of them that was not gone over the Jordan"

What is one modifying in this verse? It is “them” which is plural and not singular. Again echad is referring to a UNIT  of men and not something singular or absolute. Lets look at Ecclesiastes 4:8:

There is one [that is alone], and he has not a second; yea, he has neither son nor brother."

Notice that the words [that is alone] is in brackets and isn’t part of the text so Osama is basically going on added words!!!

Clearly, the word "one" used in these verses means an absolute one and is synonymous with the word yachid, "the only one," "alone."

From what we have seen above these examples show anything but being a single thing or just being alone.

The following question and answer were taken from www.jewsforjudaism.org:

Question: Do Deuteronomy 6:4 and Psalms 110:1 teach the Trinitarian plurality of God?

Answer: By rendering Psalms 110:1 as, ". . . the Lord said to my Lord . . ." Christians argue that Jesus is greater than David and is not only the Messiah but is part of a Trinitarian godhead as well (see Matthew 22:42-45, Mark 12:35-37, Luke 20:41-44, Acts 2:34-36, Hebrews 1:13). Yet, a careful examination finds their hypothesis to be totally without merit.

Since le-David, in verse 1, does not always mean "written by David," but sometimes "concerning David" or "in the style of David," it cannot be said with certainty that the preposition le, often translated "of," actually indicates "composed by David." Further investigation is necessary in order to understand its meaning as governed by the context of this psalm.

So in other words Jews for Judaism says that the word used for “of” virtually all the time isn’t “of” here and therefore isn’t correct. This lets us know that they don’t have a legitimate answer for this verse.

Let us examine Psalm 72. It was written by David "for," or "concerning," Solomon (cf. verses 1 and 20), yet the Hebrew contains an introductory phrase similar to the one found in Psalm 110. The introductory statement, li- S'hlomo, stresses that the psalm is "concerning" Solomon rather than that it is by Solomon. Even more significant is 2 Samuel 22:51 and Psalms 144:10, where David speaks of himself in the third person. Accordingly, there is every indication that the proper translation of Psalms 110:1 is: "A Psalm concerning David. HaShem says to my master ['adoni]: 'Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'" David is writing this psalm from the perspective of the individual who is going to recite it. From this perspective, David, as king, is appropriately referred to as "my master." The claim that David is actually (or also) referring to Jesus by the phrase "my master" is not supported by the text.

The phrase may be similar but still the contents determines it’s meaning. Read Psalms 110:1-5 closlely:

The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies. Your people shall be volunteers  In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. The LORD has sworn. And will not relent, "You are a priest forever. According to the order of Melchizedek." The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.

When we read this with some context we see that the person who is being referred to here is the Messiah who is a priest forever! David nor Solomon were priest and they certainly didn’t live forever. Nor do we see anywhere in the O.T. that Yahweh executed kings of other countries during the times of each of these men directly. So this interpretation by Jews for Judaism is totally without any merit.

The privilege of sitting at the right hand is a mark of distinction (1 Kings 2:19). When God invites David to "sit at My right hand," it is to show the privileged position enjoyed by David in his relationship with God. It is not to be taken as literally indicating sitting at God's right hand. The terminology "right hand" is here used as an expression of God's favoritism toward David.

We have see earlier that this idea has no support in light of the context, since neither David or Solomon was a priest forever.

From a Christian perspective: Does the name of God (HaShem), translated as "the Lord" in many English versions of Psalms 110:1, refer to "God the Father" or to "God the Son" or does it refer to all three members of the Trinity? Christians are divided on the answer.

Actually Christians aren’t divided on the answer, this is just a ploy by our friends from Jews for Judaism to fool their reader. The second word for Lord in this verse is Adona which is used for men in Judges we see that the angel of Yahweh is a man as well as being God. Therefore Christians believe that the first Lord “Yahweh” is God the father while the second one is Christ the Son. No division here.

Concerning the word 'Elohaynu ("our God"), which appears in the Shema, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord [HaShem] our God, the Lord [HaShem] is One ['Echad]" (Deuteronomy 6:4), most Christians maintain that it is plural and should be understood in its literal sense as "our Gods," but in the sense of a "triunity." For this reason, they often interpret the verse as: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our Gods, the Lord is a compound unity."

Again this is a strawman argument that no informed Christian mentions. We don’t say our Gods but that the word ONE here is referring to a unit. Not that Lords is compound but the essence of explaining the godhead is found in the compound useness of echad.

From this Christian explanation of the Shema, it follows that "the Lord" (HaShem) could not refer to either "God the Father" or "God the Son" alone, but must refer to all three members of the "triunity" as a whole. This being the case, how is it possible for Christians to maintain that the phrase "to my Lord" (as commonly translated in Christian Bibles) refers to Jesus? If "my Lord" refers to the second member of the supposed "triunity," Jesus, then who is the first "Lord" mentioned in the verse? If "the Lord" (HaShem) in the Shema is a "triunity" united in the divine name, that is, "the Lord is our Gods," the first "Lord" in Psalms 110:1 must also refer to the united "triunity." If this is so, then the phrase "to my Lord" automatically excludes Jesus, who allegedly is already included in the first part of the verse, "the Lord."

The people from Jews for Judaism builds a false argument and then tries to apply it to Christian thinking. There isn’t the term “my Lord” in this verse, and trying to compare this to how it is used for Jesus just won’t work since we would have to assume that “my Lord” is present in the Shema when it isn’t. Also If the 2nd lord does refer to Jesus, the first Lord is clearly God the Father. There is no need for confusion so please don’t try and cause it by putting words into Christians mouth. Also we explained above about Psalms 110:1, just refer above to get your answers.

Furthermore, if the second "Lord," supposedly Jesus, is sitting next to the first "Lord," the triune godhead or two-thirds of it, or any aggregate of it, he cannot be part of it. That which exists outside of God cannot be God.

Jesus sitting by God isn’t existing out of God. Note: the Jews for Judaism organization doesn’t even have the basic knowledge of what the Trinity is. The Trinity is 3 separate individuals working as ONE God, therefore since Jesus is sitting beside God he isn’t outside God but is just another member of God! Also look up the definition of triunity, which is something jews for Judaism doesn’t know. Triunity refers to 3 being ONE. IF you look at the Latin word in which this word descends from it is Unis which equals 1!! Therefore this concept of “tri” in triunity being ONE goes back for a very long time before Christianity. Latin existed before Christianity but yet they had the basic knowledge about this word and how this word refers to a UNIT of 3 working as ONE!

The following question and answer were taken from www.jewsforjudaism.org

Question: Doesn't Psalms 110:1 show that the Messiah will not only be greater than David but must also be a divine being?

Answer: Psalms 110:1 states: "A Psalm concerning David. HaShem says to my master: 'Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'" There is no problem with accepting that one's descendants can rise to a more exalted position than we possess at present. There is no problem with David accepting that the Messiah will be greater than he is. But, there is nothing in this verse to show that David is referring to the Messiah when he writes 'adoni, "my master," "my lord." Moreover, there is nothing in David's words to indicate that the individual he refers to as "my master" is a divine being. David "concerning" himself wrote Psalm 110 poetically in the third person.

This would only seem true if we ignore the content of Psalms 110. But since the content says the opposite of what you claim then you have no case.

Christians explain this verse based on New Testament exegesis. The Marcan Jesus says:
How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself said by the Holy Spirit; "The Lord [kyrios] said to my Lord [kyrio mou], 'Sit at My right hand, until I put your enemies beneath your feet.' David himself calls him 'Lord,' how is he then his son? (Mark 12:35-37).

Mark's rendering uses the Greek word kyrios, "lord," twice in the sentence, and the Christian translations into English capitalize the initial letter of the word to read "Lord" in both instances. Jesus' discourse is only possible if he and those he spoke to were conversing in Greek. The exegetical problems that Mark's Jesus refers to are only apparent in the Greek rendering and renderings from the Greek into other languages. In the Greek text, the initial kyrios is a reference to "the Lord," that is, God, and translates the Tetragrammaton (Y- H-V-H, the four letter name of God often referred to in Hebrew as HASHEM--THE NAME). The second kyrios, renders 'adoni, "my master," "my lord" (which according to Mark's understanding refers to "the Christ"). That is, the Greek, kyrios, is used to render two separate and distinct Hebrew words in the Greek translation. The confusion it creates in Greek does not exist in the Hebrew original. As a result, the Marcan Jesus' exegesis is non-existent in the Hebrew and incorrect in its understanding of the Greek rendering.

Actually it isn’t since Mark was smart enough to read all of Psalms 110, unlike our friends at Jews for Judaism. Mark and the other writers of the Gospel knew that David nor Solomon were priest forever. Therefore common sense along with the HOLY SPIRIT revealed to them that this was Jesus Christ. Remember the only way this explanation will work is if we ignore all the context of the passage, since we can’t then we are force to conclude that Jews for Judaism is blowing nothing but hot air.

Let us look at Psalms 45:3 "(David) Grid your sword upon (your) thigh, O mighty one, with your dignity and your splendor."  Here we see that David in Psalm 45:3 was called "O mighty one". Other Bibles have it as "O Mighty One". It doesn't mean that David is Allah Almighty or Jehovah.  It's just a Biblical expression to magnify David and to show his power and mightiness.  David was GOD's beloved and begotten son.  GOD chose David and called him the "O Mighty God".  Please note that the "King James Version" Bible says "O most mighty".  We all know that God is the most mighty, and yet King David was called "most mighty".  This is a Biblical expression to only magnify King David.  If this expression was given to Jesus, then Trinitarians today would use it to try to prove that Jesus is God.

This doesn’t mean that David is God almight since David isn’t called Mighty Elohim in this verse. If this was given to Jesus it wouldn’t mean a thing since Jesus is never called mighty one but MIGHTY GOD! For more on this see above at the beginning of this paper.

Let us look at Psalms 45:7 "You (David) have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness.  That is why God (David), your God (Jehovah), has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners."  In this verse we see that David was called God.  Of course, this doesn't make David Allah Almighty or Jehovah himself.   It's just an expression to magnify and glorify King David.

Osama intentionally tries to lie and claim this is God. If you read this passage with context you see that this passage says O GOD YOUR THRONE IS FOREVER. Since David’s throne isn’t existing now then Osama must think that David is forever, which is obviously absurd. Osama basically started using this scripture after I posted it against him so now he will try and twist it to suit his devilish desires. He is so unoriginal.

Let us also look at Psalm 24:8 "Who is this King of glory?  The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle." Here we see that the word "mighty" was used this time to magnify Jehovah and not any man.  The word mighty is just an expression and it is not just meant for GOD alone.  Notice that the author of the (NIV Bible) decided not to capitalize the word "mighty" in this verse, even though it is referring to Allah Almighty or Jehovah himself.  

The word Mighty isn’t meant to distinguish someone as being God, Osama is using a strawman argument since he obviously has no answers for why Jesus and God aren’t called just mighty ones but “MIGHTY GOD”.  The word “mighty” doesn’t need to be capitalized because it isn’t modifying “God” in this verse.

More repetitious posting by Osama

Osama in his great rebuttal posts this argument again, note it is found in his previous paper on the trinity, if you look at his site you see basically the same old material over and over again.

Let us look at 2 Corinthians 4:4 "Among whom (Satan) the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers....".  The word "god" in this verse is Hotheos  (the same exact word in John 1:1. The NIV Bible author wrote "God" in John 1:1 and not "god") in Greek but the translators translate it with a small "g" instead of capital.  

Mislead Views from Christians:  When I debate with Christians about this "God" expression given to Jesus compared to other Prophets and people, they claim that the word "God" with a capital "G" refers to God himself, and the word "god" with small "g" refers to humans.  They also claim that they came to this type of translation from the Greek translation.  Some lies and discrepancies had been inserted into the Bible through capitalizing the letter "G" when it is supposed to be a small "g" when referring to Jesus:

Let us look at John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God." This is often presented from the Gospel of John to prove that Jesus was God. There are however several problems with this claim:  By this verse it is assumed that Jesus was the "word" and since the word was God and became flesh, Jesus is God. The statement that John reproduced in his gospel however was uttered not by John but by a certain Philo of Alexandria, years before Jesus or John were born. It is therefore completely unlikely that Philo was even remotely referring to Jesus.

There is also another reason for not capitalizing the "G" in John 1:1, considering the Greek of the above verse which disproves the assertion that Jesus is referred to as God in the verse. In the verse above, the first time the word God is used, the Greek is HOTHEOS (the same exact word given to Satan as God in 2 Corinthians 4:4. The NIV Bible Author wrote "god" for Satan instead of "God"), which means The God. The second time the word God is used,"....and the word was God," the word for God is TONTHEOS, which means "a god".  Europeans have evolved a system of capital and small letters non-existent in Greek. The God, HOTHEOS is translated as God with a capital G, whereas Tontheos, which means A or ANY God is translated with a small g, god. In this case however, we see the unlawful translators trying to prove Jesus being God by putting capital G for both whereas it doesn't belong in the case of the "word".

Mr. Osama shows just how much he researches his material with this one.  He uses this old Ahmeed Deedat argument.  He claims that the first word is HOTHEOS.  The word is TON THEON!!!! Just look at this:

Greek:  KAI HO LOGOS EN PROS TON THEON

English: And the  Word      was  with        God         

The first occurrence is TON THEON and not HOTHEOS as Osama claims.

Greek: KAI THEOS EN HO LOGOS

English: And  God      was  the   Word              

This is why Satan is called “a god” because Ton Theon isn’t used for him.  This is very embarrassing indeed because Osama tries to say I don’t know Greek when he goes to Ahmeed Deedat who has already been embarrassed for mistranslating this scripture.  For more on this see www.answering-islam.org/Green/deedat.htm

So can we trust the current English Translations?  Given that facts above about verse John 1:1, how can we expect from an ordinary English speaking Christian who wants to spread his religion with all his heart honestly and faithfully to understand this lie of capitalizing the small "g" in John 1:1 and other verses, and not capitalizing the capital "M" in the word "mighty" in Psalm 24:8 and the "g" in 2 Corinthians 4:4 (for Satan) for instance?  Must we allow our faith to be all based on what other authors decide to insert from their own personal views into the Bible?  

Of course not we should ignore the Greek experts who translated the Bible into many different languages and follow Ahmeed Deedat, a man who doesn’t even know how God is rendered in Greek.  Mr. Osama I don’t speak Greek like a native speaker but I do know something about the language.  Even a Greek expert at the main Library admitted to this.  What I’m trying to say is that you can go and get material to read the Bible in Greek and Hebrew for a little of nothing so this is no excuse to mistranslate John 1:1 and then build a argument from a mistranslation.

Jesus saying "I and the Father are One.":

From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

Let us look at John 10:30 "I (Jesus) and the Father are One."  This verse is  severely misunderstood and is taken out of context, because beginning at verse John 10:23 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...,"  in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

This isn’t what the content says just read John 10:30-33, mentioned earlier.  The Jews just like Christians today knew that Jesus was claiming to be God.  Notice how Osama didn’t continue because he didn’t want his reader to see this.  He is very deceitful and never cared about presenting a true picture of Christianity because he believes the Christianity is wrong based on the sole Testimony of Muhammad. Now you know why God in the OT said that 1 witness wasn’t enough to claim anything.  Muslims claim to follow the Torah but the reason they never mention this is because they know that Muhammad was a witness unto himself.

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in
them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE".  In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus and the Father but to describe Jesus, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.

This is a argument of Akbarally Meherally. Osama uses this argument to make the claim that Jesus and the Father and disciples are all God, it is hard to find were Osama just like Meherally before him produces such reasoning.  Let us consider the verse which has the two points to it.  1.) That the disciples although different people can be united as being one.  2.) In the same way Jesus Christ and God the Father are united as being one.  Jesus Christ’s prayer to his Father is a prayer that the disciples may have perfect unity in the one Church as Jesus Christ and God the Father are in a perfect unity in the Godhead.

Of the verse in question, "I and the Father are One" in (John 10:30), we also need to take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text: "The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '" (John 10:33).  

Jesus replies to this accusation saying: "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?'" (John 10:34-36).

Mr. Osama seems to have problems explaining this passage.  For one thing, the Jews didn’t wrongly accuse Jesus because Jesus didn’t claim to be “a god.”  If you look at Psalms 82:6 you see that elohim which is understood by every Jew who ever lived to mean judges not gods.  In Psalms 82:1-“God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.”  This term is rendered as judges.  If Osama doesn’t believe me he can ask any Hebrew Expert.  Also another point that should be noted is that Psalms 82 doesn’t mentioned “THE  SON OF GOD” as being referred to just “gods”.  The Jews knew this and they stoned Jesus because he claimed to be “THE SON OF GOD” not  “gods” or a judge.  The law discusses judges while Jesus discusses being “the son of God”.  Who should we believe?  The Jews who knew this or Osama who claimed that the first word in John 1:1 is HOTHEOS when it’s TONTHEON?

Let us look at Acts 2:22 "O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you..."  Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus.  Jesus thus even to his disciples, as to early Christians, not poisoned by Pauline doctrine, was a man, not a God.

I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but if we look at the very next verse we see that Jesus died and was raised again to life!!  This again refutes the erroneous Quran about Jesus death. Read Acts 2:24-36:

 

24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

          25 David said about him: "`I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.

          26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will live in hope,

          27 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

          28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.' [1]

          29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

          30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he

               would place one of his descendants on his throne.

          31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, [2] that he

               was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.

          32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

          33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the

               promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

          34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "`The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand

          35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."' [3]

          36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

 

             1. 28 Psalm 16:8-11

             2. 31 Or Messiah. "The Christ" (Greek) and "the Messiah" (Hebrew) both mean

               "the Anointed One"; also in verse 36.

             3. 35 Psalm 110:1

Here we see that God raised Jesus and set him on his throne, then in vs. 34 says that David himself said that “God said to David’s lord “Christ” to sit at his right hand!  It then finishes by saying that God made Jesus who WAS CRUCIFIED BOTH LORD (Yahweh in Hebrew) AND CHRIST!!!  In verse 38 it says to baptize people in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins.  Now we know that only God is eternal right?  Now read Act 3:15-“and killed the PRINCE OF LIFE, whom God RAISED FROM THE DEAD, of which WE ARE WITNESSES.  This was referring to Jesus Christ and Peter says that they were witnesses to his crucifixion.  Now if Osama believes what Peter said in Acts 2:22 then what Peter said in this verse is true also!!  “Now the Prince of Life is literally translated as AUTHOR OF LIFE (ETERNAL):” (Scoffield, NKJV footnotes pg 1315).  How can a mere man be the author of eternal life?  Simple, Christ was the “word” and “the word” was God while being with God.

From www.jewsforjudaism.org:

Question: In John 10:30 Jesus says, "I and the Father are one [hen]." Doesn't this show that they are one in essence?

This statement does not suggest either a dual or triune deity. What John's Jesus meant by the word hen ("one") becomes clear from his prayer concerning the apostles: "That they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen]" (John 17:22), which means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God, as stated: "I [Jesus] always do the things that are pleasing to Him [God]" (John 8:29).
There is thus no implication that Jesus and God, or the twelve apostles are to be considered as of one essence.

This was discussed earlier, what Jews for Judaism can’t explain is why the 1st century Jews understood this as claiming to be deity:

John 10:31-33:                                                                                                                                                        30 I and the Father are one."                                                                                                                               31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,                                                                                                32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"                                                                                                                                                                        33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy,because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

In order for us to believe this argument from Jews for Judaism we must accept their interpretation over the people who lived at that time!!! Since they didn’t understand it that way like Jews for Judaism would have us to believe than these ideas of him not claiming to be God are just modern inventions used to try and explain away Christ’s deity. Also Notice that Jesus didn’t attempt to correct them which shows that he really was claiming to be God.

Is Jesus Immanu-el?

From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

Let us look at Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign, behold a will conceive and bear a child and shall call his name Immanu-el."  It is claimed that this verse was a prophecy about the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary. It is further claimed that since the word Immanuel means "God with us," the person being talked about, i.e Jesus was God.  The word translated as "virgin" is the wrong translation of the Hebrew word ALMAH. The word ALMAH in Hebrew means "young woman." The correct Hebrew word for virgin is BETHULAH. Since many young women begot children since those words were penned, it is not at all necessary that those words should apply to Jesus.

This is true I have no disagreement with this except that Osama doesn’t tell the whole definition of ALMAH. This word means a young damsel.  A damsel is a woman who has never been married.  In Hebrew culture unmarried girls were virgins!!  Even Muslims all over the world say that Mary was a virgin!  Mary claimed that she wasn’t touched by a man (sexually) making her a virgin.  Even the Jews don’t have a problem with this.  So why does Osama?  Why, because he wants to diminish the specialty of Christ’s birth which is blasphemous to both Christians and orthodox Muslims. Furthermore, rabbinic interpretation applied Isaiah 7, specifically Isaiah 7:21, to messianic times:

 "In connection with Gen. 18:4, 5 it is noted (Ber. R. 48, ed. Warsh. P. 87b) that the words of Abraham to his Angelic guests were to be returned in blessing to Abraham's descendants, in the wilderness, in the land of Canaan, and in the latter (Messianic) days. Referring only to this last point, the words 'let a little water be fetched,' is paralleled with the 'living waters' in Zech. 14:8; 'wash your feet,' with Isa. 4:4 (the washing away of the filth of the daughters of Zion); 'rest under the tree,' with Isa. 4:6- 'there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat;' 'I will fetch a morsel of bread,' with the provision, Ps. 72:16- 'there shall be a handful of corn in the earth,' etc. So also the words: 'Abraham ran unto the herd,' are paralleled with Isa. 7:21 (which is most significantly here applied to Messianic times); and lastly, the words 'he stood by them,' with Mic. 2:!3- 'the breaker is come upon them.' The same interpretation occurs in Bermid. R. 14 (ed. Warsh. p. 55a), the references to the Messianic days there being to Isa. 14:2; 30:25; 41:18; 4:4; and 4:6." (Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah- Complete and Abridged in One Volume [Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., Fourth Printing 1993], pp. 981-982)

The point that sticks out from the preceding quotation is the constant reapplication of OT passages to messianic times. Hence, Matthew was being thoroughly Jewish in his application of Isaiah 7:14 to the Messiah seeing that this is precisely what the rabbis did with Isaiah 7:21!

Osama's allegation is that the word translated virgin in the Christian Bibles is more properly translated "young maiden" since this is the proper meaning of the word almah. The Hebrew word for virgin is b'tulah.

Although it is true that almah refers to a young maiden, this maiden by necessity would be a virgin since the Mosaic Law made it forbidden for women to engage in sexual intercourse prior to marriage. (Cf. Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

Furthermore, the Bible itself testifies that the word almah can be used in reference to a virgin since Rebecca, Isaac's wife, is called an almah in Genesis 24:43. Yet in Genesis 24:16 it states that "neither had any man known her," i.e., that she was a virgin.

The most famous medieval Jewish Bible commentator Rashi (AD. 1040-1105) explained that alamot (plural of almah) in Song of Solomon 1:3 means b'tulot ("virgins") as a metaphorical reference to the nations. Hence, we find at least one Rabbi agreeing that almah and b'tulah are virtually synonymous terms.

In Exodus 2:8, almah is used to describe Moses' older sister Miriam who is an obvious virgin from the context. Moreover, more than two centuries before the birth of Jesus, the Jewish translators of the Greek Septuagint used parthenos for almah. Depending upon the context parthenos can either mean young maiden or virgin, much like the term almah. This indicates that even the Jews translating Isaiah into Greek knew that the context of the passage demanded that a virgin be meant and used the proper Greek term to signify this fact.

Osama might argue that the Septuagint is not a Jewish document. The Septuagint is the translation into Greek of the Hebrew Scriptures, made for the benefit of Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt. Osama in his articles, like many others before him, has tried to discount the value of the Septuagint. However, that is not the view of most scholars.

Suzanne Daniel, Associate Professor of Judeo-Hellenistic Literature, Hebrew University, Jerusalem states:

On the Torah portion of the Septuagint:

It is assumed that the project was initiated by the Greek-speaking Jewish community itself, which needed a version of the Pentateuch for worship and instruction.

On the Prophets and the Writings portions of the Septuagint:

It is... generally held that the versions of the Former and Latter Prophets must be placed before the end of the third century B.C.E., and that at least some of the Hagiographa were already translated at the beginning of the second century B.C.E., since the prologue to the Greek Ben-Sira (132 B.C.E.) refers to an already existing version of "the Law, the Prophets, and the other writings." It is therefore accepted that a complete version of the Hebrew Bible existed at least at the beginning of the first century C.E. ("Bible," section "Greek: The Septuagint," Encyclopedia Judaica)  

Cyrus Gordon, a leading Jewish scholar who was formerly Professor of Assyriology and Egyptology, Dropsie College, wrote:

The commonly held view that "virgin" is Christian, whereas "young woman" is Jewish is not quite true. The fact is that the Septuagint, which is the Jewish translation made in pre-Christian Alexandria, takes 'almah to mean "virgin" here. Accordingly the New Testament follows Jewish interpretation in Isaiah 7:14.

... From Ugarit of around 1400 B.C. comes a text celebrating the marriage of the male and female lunar deities. It is there predicted that the goddess will bear a son... The terminology is remarkably close to that in Isaiah 7:14. However, the Ugaritic statement that the bride will bear a son is fortunately given in parallelistic form; in 77:7 she is called by the exact etymological counterpart of Hebrew 'almah "young woman"; in 77:5 she is called by the exact etymological counterpart of Hebrew betulah "virgin". Therefore, the New Testament rendering of 'almah as "virgin" for Isaiah 7:14 rests on the older Jewish interpretation, which in turn is now borne out for precisely this annunciation formula by a text that is not only pre-Isaianic but is pre-Mosaic in the form that we now have it on a clay tablet. (Gordon, "Almah in Isaiah 7:14," Journal of Bible and Religion 21 (1953), p. 106)

Jewish sages have sometimes had something to say about the possibility of a virgin birth:

Abraham Farissol, medieval Jewish sage:

We cannot deny the possibility that God, may He be blessed, could create in a virgin, even one whom no man has known, for He created everything out of nothing. - quoted by Daniel J. Lasker, Jewish Philosophical Polemics Against Christianity in the Middle Ages (New York: KTAV/ADL, 1977), p. 153.

The Nizzahon Vetus, medieval work of polemics:

Granted that the prophet said that a virgin would give birth to a son. So what? There is, after all, no doubt that the Lord's hand is not incapable of fulfilling his will and desire, and that he is a ruler who can do whatever he wishes…" (David Berger, The Jewish-Christian Debate in the High Middle Ages: A Critical Edition of the Nizzahon Vetus [Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1996, © 1979], p. 103)

Contemporary scholar Adam Kamesar:

The doctrine of the virgin conception was not attacked per se. The possibility that a woman might conceive with her virginity intact, though by means of normal fertilization, is an occurrence which is conceded in the Talmud. (Adam Kamesar, "The Virgin of Isaiah 7:14: The Philological Argument from the Second to the Fifth Century," Journal of Theological Studies, n.s., vol. 41 part 1 April 1990, p. 51)

These citations again explicitly affirm that the Jews realized that the context of Isaiah 7:14 demanded that a virgin be meant here. This is further strengthened by the fact that Isaiah 7:14a states that this was to be a "sign" (Hebrew- ot) from the Lord. The word “ot” almost always means an extraordinary event demonstrating God's power and direct involvement in human affairs. There is nothing miraculous for a woman to conceive a child through sexual intercourse since this is something common. Yet it is truly amazing for a virgin to conceive a child as in the case of Mary and Jesus. From this we see that Osama’s assertions have nothing to stand on.

Another fact that is often ignored is that Jesus was never named Immanuel, nor did anyone ever address him as Immanuel when he lived. On the contrary, the Messiah was named Jesus (Luke 2:21) by the angel according to the gospels. Also, even if a person is named Immanuel, it doesn't mean that the person so named is God.  Consider for example all the people named ELI in the Old Testament. ELI means God in the Hebrew. It is also narrated that Jesus while talking to God referred to Him as ELI (Mark 15:34 & Matthew 27:46). We cannot however on this basis of just name accept all the people named ELI in the Old Testament as Gods. Similarly, we cannot accept a person named Immanuel (God with us) as God. Jesus was never named Immanuel anyway, so both ways the argument and claim are false.  

This is a straw man argument because both Christians and Jews recognized this to be more of a title representing the character of the person more than a name!  This has been known for over 3000 years and that is why other Islamic sites don’t bring up this point.  This is real embarrassing because if Osama wants to tell us about Christianity, how come he doesn’t even know this?  Also to show you that the Jews knew this, just read the NT.  Notice how the Jews never accused Jesus of not being the Messiah based on the fact that his name wasn’t Immanuel!!!  Surely if they took this based on name, they would’ve immediately brought this issue up.  One thing I noticed about people from non-Christian countries is that they have difficulty understanding the literal and symbolism of the Bible.  This wasn’t anything new, it’s been known for over 3000 years.

What did Jesus say about GOD?

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come; Only GOD knows. Jesus's followers wanted to know when the Judgment day will come.

In John 14:28 "The Father is greater than I."

In John 10:29 "My Father is greater than ALL."

In John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do NOTHING.....I seek not my own will but the will of Him who sent me."  Jesus was sent in this verse by his own admission. In this verse he himself says that the one who is sent: "..... the one who is sent is not greater than the one who sent (John 13:16)."

In Matthew 24:36 from NKJV-“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.”  Hmmm, the words “nor the Son” isn’t present in the traditional Majority Text of the NT, as shown in the footnotes of Scoffield’s NKJV Bible.  It is something that was added later by the United Bible Societies and Nestle-Aland (IBID).  The NKJV is based on a much earlier manuscript than the KJV.  Now since Jesus was on the earth speaking at this time then it would be correct for him to say that “ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS”.

 

For John 14:28, the literal Greek translation is “The Father is greater of me” showing us that God was the greater percentage of Jesus (Greek-English NT. Interlinear, tyndale).

 

For John 10:29, Jesus says his father is greater than all.  But in the next verse, he says that he and the Father are ONE.  The rest was discussed earlier in this paper.

 

For John 5:30, Jesus did admit this but he said “I SEEK NOT MY OWN WILL”.  He didn’t want to do his own will, but rather chose instead to do the work for his father.  For John 13:16, Jesus never said that he was less either did he? No.  Remember the Jews stoned him on several occasions because he equated himself with God.  Look at Matthew 26:63-65—

          63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under

               oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, [1] the Son of God."

          64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you

               will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

          65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!

               Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.

 

We see that the Christ or Messiah is THE SON OF GOD.  So what is Osama’s answer on this admission of Jesus?

Thomas is misunderstood  in verse John 20:28:

From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

It is often claimed that since Thomas referred to Jesus as "My God, my Lord (John 20:28)," that Jesus was God. An ignorance of the context of the verse and of Christian doctrine prompts this claim.  The context of the verse talks about an unbelieving Thomas being surprised when Jesus offers him evidence.
The exclamation, "My God," on his part was just astonishment. We use such exclamations everyday while talking to people. This doesn't mean that the person we are talking to is God. For example, I see John cutting his wrist with a Rambo knife. I say: "My God, John what are you doing?" Do I mean that John is God? Of course not. Similar is the use of the expression by Thomas. If you go into Jewish or Muslim societies even today, you'll hear people exclaim "My God, my Lord," at every situation which surprises them or causes them anguish or is astonishing.  In the verse above Thomas says: "My God, my Lord." He was not claiming that Jesus was his (1) God and (2) Lord. If he did then the church and the disciples should have stamped him as a heretic right there and then.  Because claiming that Jesus is Lord and God is a violation of Christian doctrine, which asserts that there is One God, the Father and One Lord, Jesus. Jesus can't be God and Lord.  "...yet for us there is but one God, the Father...and one Lord, Jesus Christ ...(I Corinthians 8:6)".  Believing the above (i.e Jesus is Lord and God) would leave a person with unorthodox doctrine branded by the church as Sabellianism, Patripassianism, Monarchianism.

This has been discussed in great detail earlier in the paper.  But to reiterate, it says “THE LORD OF ME AND THE GOD OF ME.”  “The” is present on both occasions making it impossible to be an exclamation since the Greek language shows no exclamation mark and since it just isn’t “MY GOD”, etc.

Jesus saying "I am":  

From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)"  Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God?

How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb (Jeremiah 1:5), yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity.  In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.

It’s pleasant to see that Osama left out the possibility of Jesus existing before Abraham.  He used Jeremiah but did the bible say that Jeremiah existed before being in his mother’s womb?  No.  When it talked about Jeremiah being a prophet it was describing his future not his past now read this from a contact of mine, Mr. Sam Shamoun:

 

John 8:58:

 

     "Jesus said to them: 'Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I AM (prin Abraam genesthai

     ego eimi)."

 

This passage is perhaps one of the strongest affirmations to the Deity of Christ, and yet one of the most controversial as well.

The reason for this is that many Trinitarians see echoes of Exodus 3:14 here where we are told:

 

     "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM (ehyeh asher ehyeh). This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has

     sent me to you.'" NIV

 

Hence, Jesus' I AM statements seemingly identify him with the I AM of Exodus, Yahweh God. If this is the case, this would

affirm that Jesus explicitly claimed to be Yahweh God.

 

However, not all agree that Jesus' I AM statements are direct claims to Yahweh. This is based primarily on the fact that the

phrase "I AM WHO I AM" can legitimately be translated as "I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE." This is due to the verb from

which the phrase stems.

 

The Hebrew phrase ehyeh asher ehyeh is derived from the verb hayah, "will be." It is often given the following meanings in

standard Hebrew Dictionaries: "was, come to pass, came, has been, has happened, become, pertained, better for thee."

 

Other meanings include:

 

   1.to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

 

1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

 

1b) to come about, come to pass

 

2) to come into being, become

 

2a) to arise, appear, come

 

2b) to become

 

2b1) to become

 

2b3) to be instituted, be established

 

3) to be

 

3a) to exist, be in existence

 

3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)

 

3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)

 

3d) to accompany, be with "

 

Furthermore, the phrase "I AM" is used 72 times in the Hebrew Bible by a number of Prophets including David, Moses, etc.

 

When used of Yahweh it implies two things. First, it implies that Yahweh is a timeless Being, that Israel's God is eternal.Secondly, it implies that Yahweh will do as he pleases since he has the infinite power to accomplish all that he wills with none to resist him. In other words, Yahweh is sovereign over all things and all things subsist in him.

 

In order to establish the case that Jesus was claiming to be Yahweh, we must see in what matter does Jesus use the phrase. Does he use it to imply timeless existence and sovereignty? Or did he use it to simply identify himself as the person whom others were seeking much like the blind man of John 9:9 did when asked if he were the one healed by Jesus?

 

Fortunately, we don't have to look far to find the answer to our question since the answer is there in John 8:58. Jesus' usage of the phrase is to contrast Abraham's beginning with his lack of beginning. In others, Jesus was unlike Abraham since the latter was brought into existence whereas Christ always was. This is brought out more clearly in the Greek verbs John uses to contrast Abraham's origins with the timeless existence of Christ, namely genesthai and eimi:

                           

"... the aorist genesthai 'came into being,' used of Abraham, is contrasted with the present eimi, which can express duration up to the present, 'I have been <and still am>' as well as the simple present, 'I am.' Jesus claims that his mode of existence transcends time, like God's, and his I am is understood by the Jews as a claim to equality with God..."(J.N. Sanders & B.A. Mastin as cited by Robert M. Bowman Jr., Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus Christ The Gospel of John [Baker Book House; Grand Rapids, MI, 1995], pp. 111-112 bold emphasis ours)

 

Bowman goes on to say in refutation of Jehovah's Witnesses' misinterpretation of this passage:

 

      "He (Jesus) chose the term that would most strongly contrast the created origin in time of Abraham with his own timeless eternality, the present tense verb eimi... Thus, had Jesus wished to say what JWs understand him to have said- that he merely existed for a long time before Abraham- he could have said so by saying, 'Before Abraham came into existence, I was,' using the imperfect tense emen instead of the present tense eimi. (This point was made by Chrysostom and Augustine, and reaffirmed by such Reformers as Calvin, and is also a standard observation found in most exegetical commentaries on John and never, to this author's knowledge, disputed in such works.) Such a statement would have left open the question of whether or not Jesus had always existed, or whether (like the angels) he had existed from the earliest days of the universe's history. Or, had he wished to make it clear that (as JWs believe) he had himself come into existence some time prior to Abraham, he could have said so by stating,'Before Abraham came into existence, I came into existence" (by using the first person aorist egenomen instead of eimi), or perhaps more simply, 'I came into existence before Abraham.' Having said neither of these things, but rather, having chosen terms which went beyond these formulations to draw a contrast between the created and the uncreated, Jesus' words must be interpreted as a claim to eternality." (Ibid., pp. 115-116 bold emphasis ours)

 

Finally,

 

      "What is it about this contrast between genesthai and eimi that has led to such a solid consensus throughout the centuries among biblical scholars that the words contrast created origin with uncreated eternal existence? By itself, of course, the word eimi does not connote eternal preexistence. However, placed alongside genesthai and referring to a time anterior to that indicated by genesthai, the word eimi (or its related forms), because it denotes simple existence and is a durative form of the verb to be, stands in sharp contrast to the aorist genesthai which speaks of 'coming into being.' It is this sharp contrast between being and becoming which makes it clear that in a text like John 8:58 eimiconnotes eternality, not merely temporal priority." (Ibid., p. 114 bold emphasis ours)

 

Interestingly, we find the same form of verbs used in the Greek Septuagint version of Psalm 90:2 where Yahweh's timeless existence is contrasted with the creation of the mountains:

 

     "Before (pro) the mountains were brought into existence (genethenai)... from age to age, you are (su ei).

 

Note the similarity in wording to John 8:58. Both use synonymous Greek terms to contrast the creation of one with the timeless existence of the other. Rob Bowman notes:

 

     "The word pro, like prin, means 'before,' and some manuscripts of the Septuagint actually have prin instead of pro. The verb introduced by these prepositions in both cases is ginomai: in Psalm 90:2 genethenai is the aorist passive infinitive of ginomai, while in John 8:58 genesthai is the aorist active infinitive. The use of the active voice instead of the passive voice, of course, does not affect the parallel between the two texts in terms of the created-eternal contrast. These aorist infinitive phrases are then set in contrast to a present indicative main clause in each case: in Psalm 90:2 LXX it is su ei, while in John 8:58 it is ego eimi. These two clauses are identical in terms and meaning except for the fact that the former is second person while the latter is first person; and again, this difference does not affect the parallel in question.

 

     "Thus the tense mood forms are identical, the syntactical relations between the two verbs in each passage are identical, and the verbs themselves used in each passage are identical. In other words, it is as if John (quoting Jesus' words in Greek) had taken the relevant words from Psalm 90:2 LXX, perhaps substituted prin for pro, replaced 'the mountains' with 'Abraham' and changed su ei from second person to first person and genethenai from passive to active. One could hardly ask for a more exact parallel, unless the passage itself were actually quoted. Since the parallel in question is fundamentally one of tense (since the issue is the significance in relation to time of the present tense of eimi in John 8:58), and since none of the differences between the two texts affect that parallel, it would be safe to conclude that eimi has the same force in John 8:58 that ei has in Psalm 90:2 LXX. In Psalm 90:2, the Septuagint rendering su ei is clearly intended to assert the eternal preexistence of Yahweh in contrast to the created origin of the mountains... To be consistent... John 8:58 just as clearly affirms the eternality of Jesus." (Ibid., pp. 117-118 bold emphasis ours)

 

Other scholars who agree include the following:

 

     "... The vast majority of translators see, as do many commentators, that there is a clear differentiation being made here between the derivative existence of Abraham and the eternal existence of the Lord Jesus Christ. Many scholars rightly point out the same contrasting of verbs as seen in the prologue of John as well as the same kind of differentiation found in the Septuagint Greek rendering of Psalm 90:2." (White, Forgotten Trinity, p. 97 bold emphasis ours)

 

     "... The tense of the verb eimi is not in question. It is the present indicative tense. A.T. Robertson comments:

 

     I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in 1:1 and egeneto in 1:14. See the contrast also in Ps. 90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genethenai). See the same use eimi in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6." (Robert Morey, Trinity, p. 364)

 

Finally, Bowman includes the following scholars in support of the connection between Ps. 90:2 and Jn. 8:58:

 

     "Once again, it must be understood that the position taken here is not original. A multitude of scholars have recognized the parallel between Psalm 90:2 LXX and John 8:58 and noted its significance as confirming that Jesus' words connote eternality. Among these should be mentioned Barnes, Barrett, Brown, Bultmann, Godet, Hengstenberg, Hoskyns, Lindars, Milligan and Moulton, Plummer, Robertson, Schnackenburg, and Winer. Not one biblical scholar has ever disputed the parallel or denied that it confirmed the traditional interpretation. Unless some important considerations have been overlooked, this exegetical conclusion would seem to be as well established as any could be." (Bowman,Jehovah's Witnesses &Jesus, pp.118-119)

 

These preceding factors clearly affirm that Jesus' I AM statement in John 8:58 served to both affirm his timeless existence and identify him with Yahweh, especially in light of the similarities to Psalm 90:2.

 

In an attempt to deny the fact that Jesus was claiming eternal preexistence, certain critics assert that Jesus was claiming to have preexisted in the foreknowledge of God much like Jeremiah whom God had known before creating him. (cf. Jeremiah 1:5)

 

This interpretation cannot be sustained for the following reason:

 

     "... As has already been mentioned (in chapter 6), John Calvin debated persons in his day who interpreted the passage to mean that Jesus was eternally known by God in his foreknowledge. This view survived late into the nineteenth century,when it was effectively put to rest by the orthodox observation that the emphatic ego allowed for no other interpretation but that Jesus himself was the one who existed eternally. Thus, Godet, a famous nineteenth-century biblical scholar, wrote:

 

     'If,' says Luthardt, 'it follows from the apposition between to be and to become, in this saying, that the existence of Christ is eternal, it follows quite as clearly from the ego that this existence is personal.' This, too, is proved by the comparison with Abraham. For there would have been a touch of charlatanism on the part of Jesus in suddenly substituting an impersonal principle for His person, in His reply to the Jews, who were accusing Him of making Himself the contemporary of Abraham. If one of the two existences compared is personal, the other must be so too, otherwise, this statement, marked as it is by the greatest solemnity, is not a serious one." (Bowman, Jehovah's Witnesses & Jesus,p. 113 bold emphasis ours)

 

Hence, the person of Jesus is eternal, having neither beginning of days nor ending of life.

 

Earlier we indicated that the phrase used in Exodus 3:14 implied both the sovereignty of God and his eternality. We have seen that Jesus' I AM statement in John 8:58 is used to affirm his timeless existence, but we have yet to discuss his usage of the term to imply his sovereign power. A classic example of such a usage is to be found at John 18:4-6:

 

     "Jesus, therefore, knowing all the things coming upon him, went forth and said to them: 'Whom are you looking for?' They answered him: 'Jesus of Nazarene.' He said to them, 'I AM.' Now Judas, his betrayer, was also standing with them. However,when he said to them, 'I AM.' They drew back and fell to the ground."

 

The reaction of the soldiers when they fell back is an indication of the sovereign power of Christ in that with one word he could have destroyed any attempts of arresting him. Such power is only true of God, not of a creature. This event is a foretaste of what shall eventually occur at Jesus' seconding coming:

 

     "Therefore, God has highly exalted him to the highest place and given him the name that is above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those in heaven and of those on the earth and of those underneath the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (i.e., the Sovereign Yahweh) to the glory of God the Father." Phillipians 2:9-11

 

In light of the preceding evidence, there can be no doubt that Jesus' I AM statements were meant to identify him with the I AM of Exodus 3:14. (Sam Shamoun, An examination of John 1:1, 8:58 and Colassians 2:9 And their significance on New Testament Christology, this article can be found among others on answering-Islam site).

 

Also another article by a Greek scholar explains this in detail.  Here is an excerpt:

 

Old Testament Background of ego eimi

 

An extensive discussion of this topic is beyond the scope of this paper. 13 Suffice it to say that the position taken by this writer reflects a consensus opinion of many scholars, that being that the closest and most logical connection between John's usage of ego eimi and the Old Testament is to be found in the Septuagint rendering of the Hebrew phrase ani hu in the writings (primarily) of Isaiah. 14 It is true that many go directly to Exodus 3:14 for the background, but it is felt that unless one first establishes the connection with the direct quotation of ego eimi in the Setuagint, the connection with Exodus 3:14 will be somewhat tenuous.

 

The Septuagint translates the Hebrew phrase ani hu as ego eimi in Isaiah 41:4, 43:10 and 46:4. In each of these instances the phrase ani hu appears at the end of the clause, and is so rendered (or punctuated) in the LXX (just as in these seven examples in John). The phrase ego eimi appears as the translation of a few other phrases in Isaiah as well that are significant to this discussion. It translates the Hebrew anoki anoki hu as ego eimi in 43:25 and 51:12. Once (52:6) ani hu is translated as ego eimi autos (basically an even more emphasized form). And once (45:18) we find ego eimi kurios for ani Yahweh! This last passage is provocative in that it is in the context of creation, an act ascribed to Jesus by John (John 1:3) and other New Testament writers (Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2-3).

 

The usage of ani hu by Isaiah is as a euphemism for the very name of God Himself. Some see a connection between ani hu and Yahweh as both referring to being. 15 That it carried great weight with the Jews is seen in 8:59 and their reaction to the Lord's usage of the phrase. If one wishes to say that Jesus was not speaking Greek, but Aramaic, the difficulty is not removed, for the identification would have been just that much clearer!

 

There seems to be a direct connection between the Septuagint and Jesus' usage of ego eimi. In Isaiah 43:10 we read, "that you know, and believe, and understand, that I am He" (personal translation). In the LXX this is rendered thus: hina gnote kai pisteusete kai sunete hoti ego eimi. In John 13:19, Jesus says to the disciples, "from now on I tell you before it comes to pass in order that when it does happen, you may believe that I am." (personal translation). In Greek the last phrase is hina pisteusete hotan genetai hoti ego eimi. When one removes the extraneous words (such as hotan genetai which connects the last clause to the first) and compares these two passages, this is the result:

 

     Is. 43:10: hina pisteusete ... hoti ego eimi

     Jn. 13:19: hina pisteusete ... hoti ego eimi

 

Even if one were to theorize that Jesus Himself did not attempt to make such an obvious connection between Himself and Yahweh (which would be difficult enough to do!) one must answer the question of why John, being obviously familiar with the LXX, would so intentionally insert this kind of parallelism.

 

Another parallel between the usage of ego eimi in John 13:19 and its usage in Isaiah has to do with the fact that in 13:19 Jesus >is telling them the future - one of the very challenges to the false gods thrown down by Yahweh in the passages from Isaiah under consideration (the so-called "trial of the false gods) This connection is direct in Isaiah 41:4, "Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, - with the first of them and with the last - I am He." Here the "calling forth" of the generations - time itself - is part of the usage of ani hu. The same is true in John 13:19. In the same chapter of the book of Isaiah references above, in verse 22 we read, "Bring in your idols, to tell us what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come..." That this reference to knowledge of the future would appear in the same section that uses ani hu as the name for God, and that this would be introduced by the Lord Himself in the same context in John 13:19, is significant indeed.

 

Hence, though some would easily dismiss the ani hu/ego eimi connection, 16 or ignore it altogether, 17 the data seems strong that this connection is intended by John himself by his usage.

 

                              Johannine Usage of ego eimi - Interpretation

 

It is not hard to understand why there have been many who have not wished to make the connection that John makes between Jesus and Yahweh. One cannot make this identification outside of a trinitarian understanding of the Gospel itself, as one can certainly not identify Jesus as the Father in John's Gospel, hence, if Jesus is identified as ego eimi in the sense of the Old Testament ani hu, then one is left with two persons sharing the one nature that is God, and this, when it encounters John's discussion of the Holy Spirit, becomes the basis of the doctrine of the Trinity! Indeed, many of the denials of the rather clear usage of ego eimi in John 8:24, 8:58, 13:19 and 18:5-6 find their origin in preconceived theologies 18 that are nearly unitarian, subordinationist, or so enamored with naturalistic rationalism as to be antisuper-natural. An interpreter who is unwilling to dismiss the words of Scripture as simply "tradition" (and hence non-authoritative) or to interpret Scripture in contradiction with itself (as in a violation of strict monotheism in the positing of a being who is quasi-god, mighty, but not "almighty") will be hard pressed to avoid the obvious conclusions of John's presentation. For the whole article you can find it at this link.  After reading this excerpt we see that scholars agree that Exodus 3:14 has to be explained more with the examples which easily helps it link to John 8:58.The Hebrew phrase ani hu is shown elsewhere as ego emi and is a euphemism for the name of God himself.

Jesus claiming to be the "Alpha and the Omega":

From www.jewsforjudaism.org:

Question : In the Book of Revelation we find the verse, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). But what do you do with Revelation 22:13, which appears to be Jesus speaking (see verse 16), when he says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end"? Doesn't the command by Matthew's Jesus to, "Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19) show the existence of a triune deity.

Answer: Despite the distinctiveness with which God and Jesus are regarded in the New Testament some Christians are under the misconception that God and Jesus form two-thirds of a triune deity. Partial responsibility for this error is due to the New Testament writers, who use a number of designations for Jesus, which are the same as those given to God in the Jewish Bible and in the New Testament. The resulting confusion as to whether certain New Testament passages refer to God or to Jesus helped to produce the belief in a triune god.

This is false propaganda used by Jews for Judaism because they are trying to use their pre-conceived notions to refute the Trinity. This isn’t an error because unlike Jews for Judaism, the N.T. writers understood the O.T. which is something they don’t, which we’ve seen earlier in this paper dealing with Psalms 110.

That Jesus, who is considered by the New Testament writers to be the link between God and creation, is called by some of the same designations that are applied to God is understandable. After all, the New Testament writers believed that God had conferred a tremendous amount of power upon this angelic being, so why not, as well, some of His names, which express certain facets of His being? But it is nevertheless clear that although the God of the New Testament interacts with the world He created solely through His "firstborn" (Colossians 1:15-17), the latter is still subservient to God. Because of the exalted yet subservient position in which they envision Jesus, the New Testament writers do not believe it compromises God's status to apply some of His names to Jesus (cf. Ephesians 1:21, Philippians 2:9, Hebrews 1:4). The use of common names is not intended to indicate that Jesus is of one substance with God.

Here is a clear error seen, as far as Judaism goes, Jesus is never referred to as a angelic being by the Jews. Jews for Judaism just committed blasphemy. Because they are saying that an Angel claimed be God! Which is something Jesus did. Also Jesus position has nothing to do with his divinity, a person for example is equal to another person but another person my have a higher rank or position. Does that eliminate the person being equal to the one with the lower position? Absolutely not.

Perhaps, if "the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelations 22:13 is actually a reference to Jesus it stems from the New Testament belief that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the first thing created by God. What is significant is not so much the use of this name as the fact that whenever the relationship between God and Jesus is treated, the New Testament writers always describe God as superior to Jesus.

In any case, in verse 12 the subject of verse 13 ("the Alpha and the Omega") says he is "coming quickly." Since Jesus has not come "quickly" this is either false prophecy or the text is not speaking about Jesus.

The N.T. doesn’t state that Jesus was ever created by God, this is a Jehovah Witness idea! Jews for Judaism is using a heretical sect’s idea as the foundation of Christian belief!!! Show us one scripture where it says that Jesus was created by God in the N.T.? You won’t find it so this is a lie by Jews for Judaism. Also what is the definition of quickly that Jews for Judaism wants us to believe? The Bible says that a thousand years are like unto a day with God, see Psalms, so it has been 2000 years since Jesus said this which in term is only 2 days to God? Jews for Judaism is trying to impose human intelligence upon what God says and does!!!

GOD says "Let us create".... in the book of Genesis:  (Does "us" mean GOD and Jesus?)

It is unfortunate that Trinitarians try their best to try to prove that Jesus was GOD himself even if the cost is corrupting the real meanings of the Old Testament. In Hebrew, Arabic and Aramaic, the word "us" can be used to magnify a person.  If a Chief Executive Officer of a company in the Middle East wants to say for instance "I decided to do the following....", then he would say it "We decided to do the following...." even though he would be referring to himself only.  

This is implying plural of Majesty but, God is never described as sayin WE THIS OR WE THAT. God always uses I!! It’s funny how jews for Judaism wants to try and apply the English plural of Majesty to the Hebrew Semitic language. So is English Hebrew?

If the word "us" in the book of Genesis is referring to Trinity as Trinitarians believe, then how come people back then were not Trinitarians?  How come the concept of Trinity was born 2300 years after the book of Genesis?  More than 1/3 of The Holy Quran (The Muslims' Holy Book) talks about Allah Almighty (GOD).  Allah Almighty in numerous verses says "We" about himself.  Muslims today believe in One GOD and don't believe in Trinity.  Jews also believe in One GOD and not in Trinity, even though in their Holy Books such as the Talmud, GOD refers to Himself as "We" and not "I".

My dear friend, you must first study the languages of Hebrew, Arabic and Aramaic before you (as a Trinitarian) start corrupting the Old Testament's real meanings.   I think this would be a sin !. 

I totally agree with Mr. Osama about studying languages of Hebrew.  Unfortunately this idea of Plural of intensification isn’t known in ancient Hebrew and is a modern explanation based on the sayings of Queen Victoria, who spoke English!!  In ancient cultures of the Middle East, the Kings or people in high positions in the Bible said “I” when referring to themselves not “WE”.  Don’t believe me then read Daniel when Nebcudnezzer spoke.  I wrote an article on this matter and first showed a Hebrew expert I knew and he couldn’t really prove that there was a plural of majesty, etc.

Further more regarding GOD using the word "Us" in the Bible:

From www.jewsforjudaism.org:

Question : God said: "Let us make man in our image . . ." (Genesis 1:26) and "Come, let us go down, and there confound their language" (Genesis 11:7). To whom does the "us" refer?

Answer: Trinitarian Christians maintain that Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 11:7 are prooftexts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is erroneous. The inference that "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26) refers to the plurality of God is refuted by the subsequent verse, which relates the creation of man to a singular God, "And God created man in His image" (Genesis 1:27). In this verse the Hebrew verb "created" appears in the singular form. If "let us make man" indicates a numerical plurality, it would be followed in the next verse by, "And they created man in their image." Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim, to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for one in authority to speak of himself as if he were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" (2 Samuel 16:20). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself' yet he refers to himself as "we" (see also Ezra 4:16-19).
 There is just one problem with this, The Plural of Majesty is just a suggestion and not a fact read all this information on the plural of Majesty:

 

The only problem with this argument is that there was no plural of majesty in the Hebrew language during biblical times. Rabbi

Tzvi Nassi, a lecturer in Hebrew at Oxford University, explains:

 

Every one who is acquainted with the rudiments of the Hebrew and Chaldee languages, must know that God, in the holy Writings, very often spoke of Himself in the plural. The passages are numerous, in which, instead of a grammatical agreement between the subject and predicate, we meet with a construction, which some modern grammarians, who possess more of the so-called philosophical than of the real knowledge of the Oriental languages, call a pluralis excellentiae. This helps them out of every apparent difficulty. Such a pluralis excellentiae was, however, a thing unknown to Moses and the prophets. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, David, and all the other kings, throughout TeNaKh (the Law, the Prophets, and the Hagiographa) speak in the singular, and not as modern kings in the plural. They do not say we, but I, command; as in Gen. xli. 41; Dan. iii. 29; Ezra i. 2, etc.( Tzvi Nassi, The Great Mystery (Jerusalem: Yanetz, 1970), 6.)

There is one problem with this usage, if you go and look in the grammar books that deal with the plural of Majesty, you will see that the the subjects must always agree, For example the plural of majesty is ALWAYS “WE” AND “US”, OR “OUR”.  The plural of Majesty never has the word “I” speak for us, etc. Osama, nor Jews for Judaism can’t even show you one example of this.  Infact the plural of Majesty is a century old hoax.  Read:

 

During the nineteenth century debates between Unitarians and Trinitarians, the principle of pluralis majestaticus was revealed to be a hoax popularized by the famous Jewish scholar Gesenius. It became clear that he used it as a ruse de guerre against Christianity.

 

The fundamental error resided in the attempt to take a modern monarchical idiosyncrasy and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown at that time. Richard Davies in 1891 pointed out, "Indeed, this royal style is unknown in Scripture."( Richard Davies, Doctrine of the Trinity (New York: Cranston & Stowe, 1891), 227.

 

One must ask Mr. Muhammad this question, since when is a English usage correct for a Semitic language?

Let us look at Exodus 7:1 "Consequently Jehovah said to Moses:  See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh and Aaron your brother will become your Prophet." There are two important things in this verse, first Moses was called "like God" and second Moses had a Prophet or Messenger.  It is clear from this verse that God in the Bible used glorifying expressions to magnify someone.  Of course Moses being called like God doesn't make him a holy person.  Moses according to the Bible was a murderer and a sinful person for a period of time, and the God of the Bible still chose to call him "like God", which clearly shows that "God" is only a magnifying title.  The only unique title to God is Jehovah in the Bible.  Also, it is commonly known that Prophets and Messengers are sent only by Jehovah or Allah Almighty and only belong to him.  In Exodus 7:1 we see that Moses not only became "like God", but he also owned a Prophet or Messenger. Of course Moses was never GOD himself.  This verse only used an expression to magnify Moses.  

 

The word for “God” means judge in this verse.  What Osama fells to emphasize is that to be “like God” is different than being God.  The Jews had more than 1 meaning for elohim.  When referring to a patriarch like Moses it usually meant judges.  When we read Exodus we see that God uses Moses to bring the JUDGMENT of the 10 plagues which further verifies this case.

Let us also look at 1 Corinthians 8:5 "For even though there are those (people) who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords."  This verse clearly shows us that we must not take the word "god" that is used for a human being as actual God or Jehovah or Allah Almighty.  

Let us look at Psalms 82:6 "I myself (Jehovah) have said:  You are gods and all of you are sons of the Most High."  Here we see that Jehovah or Allah Almighty called other Prophets "Gods" and his "Sons".  Does that make them Jehovah himself just because they were called Gods?  Of course not.

Let us look at Psalms 82:1 "God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of gods he judges."  Here we see that God will judge his own Gods in the day of judgment.  Again, the word "god" is just a magnifying expression when given to people.  It doesn't mean the actual GOD himself.

I agree with Osama on this but Jesus was never called “a god” nor “a son of God”. As we saw earlier Mr. Osama’s attempt to base a claim like this on John 1:1 for example, is the opposite of what he claims.  Jesus was called GOD’S ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. Monogenes is the word “only” which is only applied to Jesus.

Let us look at Jeremiah 51:57 "And I (Jehovah) will make her Princes and her wise ones, her governors and her deputy rulers and her mighty men drunk...." Here we see that the word "Mighty" was used to magnify men.  It is the same word that is used to magnify God.  We can clearly see in this verse that the word "Mighty" is just a magnifying expression that is not always used for GOD or Jehovah.

Let us also look at Joshua 6:2 "And Jehovah went on to say to Joshua:  See, I have given Jericho and it's king, the valiant mighty men, into your hand." Again, here we see the word "mighty" used for magnifying men and not God.

Here Osama is comparing apples to oranges, because mighty isn’t the term used to differentiate or make things special.  The thing is, many people were called mighty but only God was called MIGHTY GOD and Jesus was also called this phrase.  There is nobody else in the OT given this name.  As we  saw earlier, Mighty One is different from Mighty Elohim.  If we took Osama’s logic, everytime one is used we would either say that it was Elohim.  This doesn’t make much sense.

Let us look at Hebrew 1:3 "He (Jesus) is the reflection of (GOD's) glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places."  Of course Jesus was GOD's reflection.  Muslims and Christians agree that Jesus was GOD's spirit (but not GOD himself), and GOD's favorite creation.  Allah Almighty chose Jesus to be his favorite messenger and he was GOD's favorite creation.  Jesus represented GOD very well, and he was GOD's ambassador to his people.  Christians often confuse Jesus's favorite place in GOD's heart with GOD himself.  Jesus was the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, he had the Majesty place in heaven.

Mr. Osama tries his best to downplay the meaning of this verse.  The word is not “representation” but image.  This word is Econi which is a exact representation of something.  For example look at Revelation with the image of the Beast.  The scriptures say that Jesus was “THE EXACT REPRESENTATIONOF GOD’S VERY BEING”.  Mr. Osama doesn’t discuss this in great detail like he does with reflection.  We know that Jesus was God’s reflection but the scripture goes further by calling him THE EXACT REPRESENTATION OF GOD’S VERY BEING.  The scriptures speak for itself here so why should we accept Osama’s downplaying of this scripture?  People like Osama wants us to disbelieve in Jesus deity based on their opinion instead of taking the scripture itself for what it says.

Also again, let us look at John 1:14 "So the word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth."  This verse was explained earlier in this page.  Here we see that Jesus and GOD are two different entities or beings.  Jesus was glorious, GOD's favorite son (creation, not actual biological son as explained earlier in this page), GOD's messenger, but he was never GOD himself.

Christians know that Jesus was separate from God, why do you think they call us Trinitarians?  John 1:1 says that the Word WAS GOD AS WELL AS BEING WITH GOD.  This is hard for Osama to accept since the NT teaches the doctrine of the trinity clearly.

Let us look at John 1:18 "No man has seen GOD at anytime; the only-begotten GOD who is in the bosom (position) with the Father is the that has explained him."  Here we see Jesus telling his followers that no one has seen GOD.  This verse also proves that Jesus is not GOD.

This verse proves that Jesus was God.  For one thing this wasn’t Jesus talking it was John.  Another thing Osama doesn’t talk about is “BEGOTTEN GOD”.  The word begotten means to cause to exist here on Earth.  When it applied to God, we see that God came down and was begotten.  Osama knows that the scriptures speak for themselves so his only defense is to say that it disproves Jesus deity without actually disproving it.

 

Now in Isaiah 9:6 "......Eternal Father,....."

Jesus being called Eternal Father means that he will be the light and the way to his followers.  He will bring life to them.  He is going to be their leader, and their spiritual guidance.  This is all done through the Holy Spirit that was explained earlier.  

Actually father is before eternal so this correctly translates as “father of eternity”. Since Christ is called the father of eternity then this means that he is pre-existent and created eternity making him God.

Let us look at 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive."  Here we see that Jesus is indeed the Eternal Father (leader) to his people.  He is life that never dies to his followers.  

Let us look at Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift GOD gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."  Here again we see Jesus being the everlasting life to his followers.  He is their Eternal Father.

Let us look at 1 Corinthians 6:15 "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?  Shall I, then, take the members of the Christ away and make them members of a harlot?  Never may that happen!"  Here we see that because Jesus is the "Eternal Father" to his people, they are called members of Christ.  Jesus chose to call his followers members of Christ.  He was the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords.  However, this verse just like all of the above verses proves that Jesus is not Allah Almighty.

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:  Did you know that in the languages of Arabic and Hebrew the father of the house can be called the Lord of the house?  Jesus was the Lord (father or leader) of his people and their father.  For Jesus being the leader and the king, it is normal for him to be called the father of his people (Father in Isaiah 9:6).  My own father is my Lord in the languages of Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew.

The thing I want to focus on here is Osama’s use of father.  In the scriptures used, Jesus isn’t called father, also they were written in Greek not Hebrew.  Also Jesus wasn’t called the father of a house.  So for Mr. Osama to compare it to that is fallible since, this was never used of Jesus.

Conclusion:

I hope that I was able to help you notice that the Bible uses titles such as God, King, Lord, and Prince to so many people on so many occasions.  David for instance was called the O mighty one in Psalms 45:3, and God in Psalms 45:7.  We as intelligent readers and truth seekers must not take everything in the Bible so literal.  It is wrong, and misleading to do so.  We have to watch out from dangerous misleading titles that are given to people throughout the Bible.  It's unfortunate that such titles are used in the Bible to magnify and glorify people.  It certainly had caused so much confusion among Christians, and human beings throughout history, and it is the main reason for today's many divisions and sects in the religion of Christianity.  Allah Almighty said in the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Book): "Indeed they reject the truth, those that say "God is Christ, the son of Mary." For indeed, Christ said, worship God, who is my God and your God." (The Holy Quran, 5:72).

David wasn’t called God in Psalms 45:7 which is easily seen when someone researches the Hebrew context of the scriptures. Osama obviously knows nothing about the bible and this reposting just won’t work as a rebuttal.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for taking the time to read my paper.  I wish it was helpful and useful for you in your journey in seeking and learning about the truth of the Almighty God.  May God bless you all the way.

Mr. Osama flat out lies about Psalms 45:3 and 2 Samuel.  These are the many things present in his paper. I am glad that I read it to discover his covering up of the truth.

My comments on answering-islam's rebuttal to this page:

It's quite ironic that Answering Islam in http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/ had linked to a page that picked and chose verses that only form 30% of my article above and claim that they refuted my Answering Trinity paper.  As you can see dear reader, every single verse that I presented was carefully picked to refute trinity.  So, for someone to come and only respond to 30% of them, is totally unacceptable in the mature and intelligent men's world.  This current paper is still longer in quantity than their response (which supposedly has ALL of my points and their answers).  Obviously, they picked and chose to weaken my argument to the reader.

Actually when my response was written to Osama he was visibly shaken this idea about responding to only 30 percent of his article is his imagination, I wonder what excuse he will come up with next.

Just for the sake of record, I was called so many times on the page that they linked to a "liar" and a "deceiver".  Well, I try my best to remain truthful and honest on my site, and I always present the references of those folks who write articles.  I never take anyone's work and put it under my name.  Yet, I was called a liar by answering-islam's team.  Childish name calling doesn't help.   It makes the caller look like an idiot in front of everyone. 

Oh really Osama well everybody should see your post on Idjnet. I will post more on this in the future just to show you just how of a liar Osama is.

It's quite ironic that I was called a "liar" by answering-islam's team when they themselves had lied to the world and stole www.answering-christianity.org and didn't put any web page on it to make it appear to the Muslims that it is available, but no Muslim really cares to answer them.  You can check with Network Solutions at http://www.networksolutions.com to see who owns that site if you do not believe me.  You will see that it's the same owners that own www.answering-islam.org.

So who is the real "liar" and the real "deceiver" then? 

We didn’t steal anything, Osama please spare us and come up with something new and original!!!

E-mail me Quennel Gale at queball20@yahoo.com

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